Poll Did the sequel trilogy add anything meaningful to the saga?

[fireproof78]

How does that even work though? We only see the one Starkiller attack which seems to be focused on a handful of planets located pretty close to each other. The beam also took time to propagate through space.

Was the fleet just sitting there not doing anything? Why was a portion of the fleet large enough to cripple the Republic if it was lost all in one place? This is like the opposite of the Star Trek "only ship in position to intercept" problem.

And why did TFA not show the fleet itself being attacked, or even mention it, IIRC?

Well, now you are getting in to ancillary material territory as to "how it works." Yes, the Fleet is mentioned in Hux's speech, and is indicated to be the primary reason why the First Order would not attack the New Republic head on.

The fleet had no reason to be doing anything at the time. The First Order was not regarded as a threat, and they were not expected to have the large amount of military assets they end up having. Poe's expression on being aboard "The Finalizer" at the beginning of TFA is one of shock at the size of their ship.

But, I agree it could have been explained a little bit better. But, there are enough elements there to keep me engaged. Kind of a reverse prequel trilogy for me; the books of the PT actually made the PT almost worth watching. The ST made me want to read more.

Mileage will vary.

 

[Reverend]

Ok. Agree to disagree.

This isn't a matter of opinion or personal tastes, it's simple objective plot mechanics.
You don't get to introduce the main focus of the final conflict *5 mins before the finale* without being called out as a sloppy writer. Less of a Chekov's Gun and more of a Boris's Gun. Who's Boris? Fuck knows! He just showed up!
Seriously, imagine ANH if the Death Star didn't show up or was mentioned at all until *after* they got to Yavin. They didn't even bother mentioning it in the damn crawl!

I was willing to let it slide at the time because I thought maybe they'd actually go somewhere interesting, and TLJ kinda made a move in that direction, but then they bottled out in the third instalment, thus forfeiting the benefit of the doubt.

 

[fireproof78]

This isn't a matter of opinion or personal tastes, it's simple objective plot mechanics.
You don't get to introduce the main focus of the final conflict *5 mins before the finale* without being called out as a sloppy writer. Seriously, imagine ANH if the Death Star didn't show up or was mentioned at all until *after* they got to Yavin. They didn't even bother mentioning it in the damn crawl!

Again, I don't agree. I think the whole point of TFA is to illustrate that the First Order is more dangerous that it appears.

It is a matter of personal taste because I don't see it as lazy; I see it as escalating the stakes. But, if calling it sloppy writing makes it better then ok...

 

[Reverend]

It is a matter of personal taste because I don't see it as lazy; I see it as escalating the stakes. But, if calling it sloppy writing makes it better then ok...

Not being bothered by a fumbling mess of a plot, doesn't make it any less of a fumbling mess.

 

[fireproof78]

Not being bothered by a fumbling mess of a plot, doesn't make it any less of a fumbling mess.

I don't see it as a fumbling mess. That's the difference.

 

[Reverend]

I don't see it as a fumbling mess. That's the difference.

Well, then you are lost!

 

[fireproof78]

Well, then you are lost!

I already knew that...

 

[DonIago]

Well, now you are getting in to ancillary material territory as to "how it works." Yes, the Fleet is mentioned in Hux's speech, and is indicated to be the primary reason why the First Order would not attack the New Republic head on.

The fleet had no reason to be doing anything at the time. The First Order was not regarded as a threat, and they were not expected to have the large amount of military assets they end up having. Poe's expression on being aboard "The Finalizer" at the beginning of TFA is one of shock at the size of their ship.

But, I agree it could have been explained a little bit better. But, there are enough elements there to keep me engaged. Kind of a reverse prequel trilogy for me; the books of the PT actually made the PT almost worth watching. The ST made me want to read more.

Mileage will vary.

I'm not really understanding this though. I mean, maybe I've watched too much Star Trek, but there were always things for ships to be doing. Diplomacy, cargo runs, border patrols, trying to track down Luke Skywalker... How does it work out that they're most/all in a place where Starkiller can wipe them out so incredibly effectively? And, strategically speaking, doesn't it make more sense to have a fleet somewhat dispersed throughout your space than to have it centralized?

I definitely find the movies engaging; it's when people claim there are no plot issues that I get a migraine.

 

[fireproof78]

I'm not really understanding this though. I mean, maybe I've watched too much Star Trek, but there were always things for ships to be doing. Diplomacy, cargo runs, border patrols, trying to track down Luke Skywalker... How does it work out that they're most/all in a place where Starkiller can wipe them out so incredibly effectively? And, strategically speaking, doesn't it make more sense to have a fleet somewhat dispersed throughout your space than to have it centralized?

I definitely find the movies engaging; it's when people claim there are no plot issues that I get a migraine.

I didn't say there are no plot issues. I genuinely don't know why the whole fleet was standing around. I do know that there was a meeting of New Republic leadership on Hosnian Prime as it was being destroyed. There was a Resistance officer there too.

The New Republic did not want to come across as a military power. So, they're attitude towards how the fleet was dispersed might have been impacted. But, now I'm speculating based upon watching the film.

Again, not saying there are no issues. I certainly wouldn't have minded a little more political explanation in the ST. But, that doesn't mean I can't follow along with the plot either.

 

[DonIago]

My apologies, I didn't mean to suggest that you were saying there are no issues.

 

[fireproof78]

My apologies, I didn't mean to suggest that you were saying there are no issues.

No, it's fair. I definitely can become an apologist for these films, and I admit my blindspots to the films. I genuinely feel like the issues made with these films are ones that would not necessarily be made with prior films, both the OT and the PT. So, I might be overly kind at times because I think these films are overly criticized.

 

[Damian]

If the answer is "read the books/comics/etc." then that's a real failure with regards to the films, which shouldn't rely on their audience being that familiar with the other material.

Yes! A thousand times yes! Unfortunately it seems to be a current trend to shove exposition off the screen onto related media, a trend I despise. The same thing happened with the 2009 Star Trek reboot. It really shouldn't be that way! A recent example would be Palpatine's message. Instead of having to play Fortnite to hear it, something that critical to the plot would have helped being in the actual movie. Or imagine hearing it within the final moments of TLJ. But Fortnite? WTF?

Yeah, I agree. I'm just a casual Star Wars fans. Just the movies frankly. I'm not going to read Star Wars books or comics. If I see a Star Wars movie and am lost at points or don't know what's going on because I was supposed to read a book or a comic--well that's going to affect my enjoyment of the movie. And there are tons of people that just see the movies (and maybe shows) and would never pick up a book.

With Star Trek I do read the novels pretty extensively. But in Star Trek's case I can't say I've ever had to read a book to understand what's going on in a show or movie. The books add to the background and the story, but they are not required to enjoy the movie. A Star Trek producer would never say "read Dead Endless if you want to know what happened on Discovery".

 

[fireproof78]

Curiosity of mine-is enjoyment of these films taken away by these questions posted while not watching the film?

Because, as much as I love a good discussion, if I am watching the film and am engaged in the story then those questions matter less.

And I ask this because I had the same experience with other films, including ST 2009. I had no issue discerning Nero's motivation, or what had happened with Romulus and I didn't read the Countdown comic. Same with TFA. I haven't read many of the books for the ST, outside of the TLJ novel and the visual dictionaries. But, I can still pull together the different elements of the story while watching it.

Now, I don't think I'm the smartest guy in the world or anything but I would like to think that if I can figure it out then others can too.

 

[Damian]

Curiosity of mine-is enjoyment of these films taken away by these questions posted while not watching the film?

Because, as much as I love a good discussion, if I am watching the film and am engaged in the story then those questions matter less.

And I ask this because I had the same experience with other films, including ST 2009. I had no issue discerning Nero's motivation, or what had happened with Romulus and I didn't read the Countdown comic. Same with TFA. I haven't read many of the books for the ST, outside of the TLJ novel and the visual dictionaries. But, I can still pull together the different elements of the story while watching it.

Now, I don't think I'm the smartest guy in the world or anything but I would like to think that if I can figure it out then others can too.

I had two main issues with TFA. One was what I saw was a retread of the first Star Wars film. But I can get over that if it's good characters and engaging (TFA was halfies for me on that--not terrible but not enjoyable enough to add it to the collection).

But I kept wondering what the hell happened after ROTJ. Who's this first order? Why are there 3 factions (resistance, First Order, New Republic)? Shouldn't the resistance be together with the New Republic? And TLJ did nothing for me to answer those questions and I just did not enjoy large parts of TLJ overall. Now that end of it is varying tastes. Others may have thought TLJ was a great film. Me? I wanted my 2 1/2 hours returned to me. I almost shut it off. It was the first Star Wars film I actually did not like. TFA was ok, watchable but not worth a rewatch, The Phantom Menace was the next closest on the list but I never considered walking away and in fact do have that in my film collection. It has enough good in it (Darth Maul anyone) that I can sit down and watch it periodically.

 

[fireproof78]

Others may have thought TLJ was a great film.

Definitely me and my wife. But, I get that it isn't for everyone, though even with The Phantom Menace and Revenge of the Sith I didn't feel the need to shut it off, though Revenge of the Sith was darn close. Very unsatisfying end, so I can almost see that point of view. But I have never wished to have time returned to me over a movie.

Of course, if one is not enjoying the film then the question will invariably pop up of the what and why. So, I guess if people are not invested in the ST characters then those questions are more apparent. It's a fair point.

 

[Gaith]

No way. The complaining about the ST is tiresome enough without the constant complaining of how they ruined Thrawn or Palleon or Kir Kanos.

Then don't ruin 'em!

 

[fireproof78]

Then don't ruin 'em!

Easier said than done. Years and years of fan expectations are not so easily overcome.

 

[Damian]

But I have never wished to have time returned to me over a movie.

Just a little joke. Usually when I don't like a movie I'll say something like that.

I find if I find a movie entertaining or enjoy it, I can overlook it's flaws more. Star Trek: Nemesis for example. I always joke I'm one of the 10 people that liked that movie. And I did. I am aware of its flaws but because I liked the movie overall it's easier to overlook those flaws. Not finding a movie enjoyable, like TLJ, makes the flaws bigger. Maybe if I liked the movie otherwise I might let the Leia in space scene go just as an example. I still might eyeroll it but I'll get over it.

Is it fair? Probably not. But it's probably human nature.

 

[Damian]

I will say about the only thing I liked about TLJ was the scene where they go to the planet to try to find the 'code cracker'. It was interesting to see the galaxy in a normal, real life setting. Most planetary based settings in the Star Wars universe were usually far away places, battle sites or involved the people running the galaxy and things of that nature. We rarely saw the regular citizens in normal, daily life.

In TLJ we did get to see regular citizens in a normal setting in a city environment. It was interesting to see how the regular people lived.

Attack of the Clones had some of that in the beginning as well, though that was on Coruscant.

 

[Masiral]

Did it add anything meaningful? How about a new generation of Star Wars fans? How about a trilogy centered on a strong female character that has already become beloved? I'm sure there will be those who disagree with me. I'm also sure they will almost entirely be men. Just because it isn't meaningful to you, doesn't mean it isn't meaningful to millions of others. If this isn't your trilogy, that's fine. You have plenty of other Star Wars that works for you. Just stop trying to ruin it for the rest of us.