Things from other sci-fi you wished to see in TOS....

[Warped9]

This could be a bit tough since we’re talking about other sci-fi in television and film of the period.

As amazing as TOS was in so many ways it sometimes took a misstep or missed an opportunity. In that light is there anything you saw in other SF film or television from back in the day (1950s-‘60s) you wished you could have seen Star Trek?

I must admit that while rewatching the original Outer Limits or first season of Lost In Space there would be the odd thing I might have liked to see in Star Trek. Outer Limits had the occasional alien I thought was quite cool and Lost In Space did some f/x work I thought was quite respectable (the Jupiter II flying over the landscape was very cool),

Anyone?

 

[Spock's Barber]

One of the few aspects of LIS that I think should have been incorporated into TOS was the family-in-space factor. Why not show mom, dad and children together in Starfleet service?

 

[Christopher]

My first thought, no. Aside from anthologies, '60s SFTV was crude and immature (in more than one sense of the word) compared to prose science fiction. The reason Star Trek and The Twilight Zone were so far above everything else from the era is that they drew on authors and concepts from written SF, which was light-years beyond mass-media SF (and still is today, though not to quite as great an extent). So if there were stuff from other SF that I wanted to see in Star Trek, it would be from prose, not other TV or film.

...and Lost In Space did some f/x work I thought was quite respectable (the Jupiter II flying over the landscape was very cool),

Okay, I'll grant that much. While TOS's extensive use of optical effects was in many ways a step above its contemporaries, bluescreen work did have some tradeoffs in quality. It might've been nice if they'd made some use of wirework flying shots like the Lydeckers used in LiS. It might've been a good way to show shuttlecraft landings and takeoffs. (I think the one time they did something like that was in the shot of the shuttlecraft taking off from the hangar deck in "The Galileo Seven.")

And if we're talking about visual or technical things, I think that Space: 1999 had better tech designs than Trek in a lot of ways -- more detailed and plausible equipment, better ship design (although Eagles and shuttlecraft both have the same problems with lack of airlocks and inconsistent interior and exterior proportions), etc.

One other thing that occurs to me -- some other shows were better at using their ensembles than TOS was, and better at racial inclusion. 1999's first season had a very similar cast structure to TOS -- a captain, science officer, and doctor as the three leads, and a multiethnic foursome of supporting players, plus a recurring nurse -- but it gave more focus to the second-tier foursome than TOS usually managed. Also, in Land of the Giants, Don Marshall was treated as a full equal member of the ensemble, which is better than the background role Uhura was almost always relegated to.

 

[StarCruiser]

Family in space - was done (to some extent) in TNG but... TOS had a more "military" feel and as such, no families in space.

I suspect we MIGHT have seen the Enterprise's saucer flying over the surface of a planet if the budget had allowed that to happen. As we all know, the transporters and shuttle craft came about to avoid that expensive effect work.

 

[Warped9]

So if there were stuff from other SF that I wanted to see in Star Trek, it would be from prose, not other TV or film.

I forgot about SF lit. I could allow for that.

 

[Henoch]

Not technically "see", but fighting and defeating a horrific invisible monster a la Forbidden Planet or Jonny Quest. Yikes if it gets aboard the ship! Hopefully, dropping paint on it wouldn't work...

 

[ZapBrannigan]

In "The Omega Glory," when Tracy chases Kirk and they have a street fight, the writer's intention was evidently to have Tracy shooting his phaser while running, and the beams splatter rain barrels and whatnot. Willy nilly phaser fire on the run, having a physical impact (not just "film dissolves") on actual objects.

On a western show, it would have been a very do-able stunt, with practical effects work on-set. But on Star Trek, they couldn't do it. Too complicated.

A more general example: one of the coolest things on a space show or movie is to see a person in actual relation to the ship. It gives the ship a greater reality. Planet of the Apes had its abandon-ship scene. Lost in Space was great at space walks, especially in the early, serious episodes. 2001: A Space Odyssey did it, too.

Star Trek couldn't do it, and it was no surprise when TMP, the very first Trek film, leapt at the chance. They even had the crew walk on the saucer's hull to greet V'Ger. Because they now could, and it jazzed up the movie for spaceship fans.

 

[Warped9]

^^ A big part of the issue was time, as well as money. Space walks had been done on film in the ‘50s (I’m thinking Destination: Moon). LIS managed it, but TOS was strapped for time and money.

LIS gave us some very cool Jupiter II in atmosphere sequences as well as landing and take-offs so it was very doable for TOS’ shuttlecraft. But, alas, time constraints again.


Two aliens from Outer Limits I thought could have worked for TOS were the alien from “The Galaxy Being” and the rather asymmetrical looking Chromite from “The Mice.”

Seeing what had been done in the film Fantastic Voyage leaves me wondering if they could have done better in “The Immunity Syndrome.”

 

[Christopher]

Two aliens from Outer Limits I thought could have worked for TOS were the alien from “The Galaxy Being” and the rather asymmetrical looking Chromite from “The Mice.”

A few Outer Limits monsters did show up in TOS, specifically as the Horta (modified somewhat from the original) and a couple of the Talosians' zoo specimens in "The Cage."

Seeing what had been done in the film Fantastic Voyage leaves me wondering if they could have done better in “The Immunity Syndrome.”

Well, that movie's FX creators (the 20th Century Fox in-house team) were working on the Irwin Allen shows and Batman at the time. Props from Fantastic Voyage showed up in those series, and I recall part of a "blood vessel" interior from the movie was used as part of an alien device in one Lost in Space episode.

 

[ZapBrannigan]

Well, that movie's FX creators (the 20th Century Fox in-house team) were working on the Irwin Allen shows and Batman at the time. Props from Fantastic Voyage showed up in those series, and I recall part of a "blood vessel" interior from the movie was used as part of an alien device in one Lost in Space episode.

Unless I'm mistaken, Voyage to the Bottom of the Sea used a Fantastic Voyage blood vessel interior to represent the inside of a whale. And I think they had to film after hours, because the set was needed for the movie during the day. Ssosmcin might know this stuff. VTTBOTS is his thing.

Lost in Space "A Trip Through the Robot" might have gotten part of the Robot's "beating heart" mechanism from Fantastic Voyage, as well. In those days, there were no actual beating robot hearts of that size, so something had to be arranged.

 

[Commishsleer]

I always thought the jet pack in Lost in Space was cool and the force field and the chariot.
I'd have like to have seen some anti-gravity stuff like we saw in TMP.

I suppose we take the amazing stuff like Nomad and the transporter and automatic doors, communicators for granted.

 

[scotpens]

Two aliens from Outer Limits I thought could have worked for TOS were the alien from “The Galaxy Being” and the rather asymmetrical looking Chromite from “The Mice.”

Yeah, that could work.

Seeing what had been done in the film Fantastic Voyage leaves me wondering if they could have done better in “The Immunity Syndrome.”

Heresy and sacrilege! The giant psychedelic space amoeba was one of the coolest effects in the entire series.

I always thought the jet pack in Lost in Space was cool and the force field and the chariot.

Meh. The jetpack was a Bell rocket belt that was already old stuff when it was used in the pre-credits sequence in Thunderball (1965). And the Chariot was just a Thiokol Snowcat with a custom body.

I'd have like to have seen some anti-gravity stuff like we saw in TMP.

Well, we did see those portable anti-grav units in a couple of episodes.

 

[johnnybear]

And if we're talking about visual or technical things, I think that Space: 1999 had better tech designs than Trek in a lot of ways -- more detailed and plausible equipment, better ship design (although Eagles and shuttlecraft both have the same problems with lack of airlocks and inconsistent interior and exterior proportions), etc.

On the contrary, Space 1999s Eagles were very consistent with their interiors and exteriors! And did have an abundance of airlocks when a visiting spaceship came for a visit!

Planet of the Apes had its abandon-ship scene. Lost in Space was great at space walks, especially in the early, serious episodes. 2001: A Space Odyssey did it, too.

Both Apes and LIS had spaceships that didn't match up with the exteriors and interiors! Even the first episode of the TV series of POTA showed us a small area for the three astronauts to inhabit (which unless the flight time in space was only a few hours to a day was basically impractical) but that area was shown to be far too small from the exterior view unless the main carriage was buried in the dirt but it wasn't and the Jupiter 2 used that very idea to hide it's proportions while languishing on it's ship-wrecked planet! But while in space it was pretty obvious that the interior was far larger than the spaceship exterior! Especially when they added the mysterious third floor in the third season!!! The two floors were already an impossibility!!!
JB

 

[Warped9]

Several years during a revisit of first season LIS I was struck by some of the space scenes with their use of nebulae to relieve the otherwise starkness of deep space. This is something I’d like to have seen periodically in TOS.

Now as I understand it a nebula up close wouldn’t look like it does from a great distance. In that respect TOS might have gotten it somewhat right in that the Murasaki 312 object seen in “The Galileo Seven” might look much more mundane from within. Nebulae are supposed to be somewhat defuse dust clouds that look colourful as seen from a great distance—unless I’ve got it all wrong. Also the Murasaki object was referred to as a “quasar like phenomena” rather than a nebula which is not the same thing.

Nonetheless it’s something I would have liked to have seen periodically.


Regarding Space: 1999 production designs. Some stuff I saw in 1999 could be interesting, but the human equipment didn’t work for TOS in my opinion given the tech shown was meant to be showing us a near future level of technology as opposed to a far future one. TOS was inconsistent (being television) with it’s depiction of far future Starfleet tech, but later TMP tech looks a lot better than S1999. That said the claustrophobic looking corridors in TMP don’t look as inviting as the more open looking corridors of TOS.

In general after TMP I got evermore disappointed with the depiction of tech in the Trek movies. It looked darker, more cramped and dingier. TNG got back on track in that respect.

 

[Christopher]

And the Chariot was just a Thiokol Snowcat with a custom body.

Imagine if they'd built the TOS shuttlecraft around one of those, though.

Several years during a revisit of first season LIS I was struck by some of the space scenes with their use of nebulae to relieve the otherwise starkness of deep space. This is something I’d like to have seen periodically in TOS.

I've gotten tired of the modern trend (starting with Babylon 5) to spruce up space shots with all sorts of bright, colorful nebulae. It's really been taken too far at this point. It's gotten to the stage that you never see space that's just stars and blackness anymore -- it's always got to be impossibly cluttered with nebulae and asteroid fields and shattered planets and what-have-you. Which renders it kind of oxymoronic to keep calling it "space."

Now as I understand it a nebula up close wouldn’t look like it does from a great distance. In that respect TOS might have gotten it somewhat right in that the Murasaki 312 object seen in “The Galileo Seven” might look much more mundane from within. Nebulae are supposed to be somewhat defuse dust clouds that look colourful as seen from a great distance—unless I’ve got it all wrong. Also the Murasaki object was referred to as a “quasar like phenomena” rather than a nebula which is not the same thing.

Yeah, you're right. Real nebulae are far, far less dense than Earth's atmosphere. From within, they'd be completely invisible. The way the Mutara Nebula was portrayed in TWOK was more like the upper atmosphere of a gas giant. In fact, I wish it had been, since then the Genesis Wave could've just ripped away its atmosphere and terraformed its solid core into the Genesis Planet, rather than magically creating a planet (and star?) out of a nebula.

One idea I've proposed in a couple of my Trek novels is that the "nebulae" seen in ST are an undiscovered type of micronebula, isolated dense clumps left over when larger nebulae are dispersed. We know that nebular matter collapses to form new star systems all the time, but we also know there are a lot of independent rogue planets in interstellar space. Most of them were probably ejected from forming planetary systems, but I thought: what if some of them formed in isolation, from smaller clumps of condensation? A Mutara-type micronebula could be an early stage in the formation of a rogue protoplanet. Since they wouldn't be much larger than Jovian planets, they'd be small enough to have eluded discovery up to now. And it would explain why space in Trek has so many dozens of nebulae that are unknown in the present.

As for Murasaki 312, that's an interesting case. When the episode came out, the nature of quasars was unknown, a major scientific mystery, so it was plausible that they might exist in our galaxy and that investigating them could be a priority. By the '80s, it had been determined that quasars were actually the bright active nuclei of distant galaxies (i.e. supermassive black holes emitting massive jets of energy from infalling matter), so the idea of a "quasar" within our own galaxy seemed ridiculous. But now, the term "microquasar" is used for regular-sized black holes that are active in the same way as the supermassive black holes in galactic nuclei. So that makes Murasaki 312 plausible again. The TOS Remastered version of "The Galileo Seven" even depicted Murasaki 312 as a microquasar, a black hole with an accretion disk and emission jets.

Regarding Space: 1999 production designs. Some stuff I saw in 1999 could be interesting, but the human equipment didn’t work for TOS in my opinion given the tech shown was meant to be showing us a near future level of technology as opposed to a far future one. TOS was inconsistent (being television) with it’s depiction of far future Starfleet tech, but later TMP tech looks a lot better than S1999.

Although S'99 managed to put video screens in their communication devices, as opposed to the "far future" audio communicators of TOS. And the unconventional inverted-V shape of their hand weapons seemed more removed from modern guns than the pistol design of the Phaser 2. So they did look more advanced in some ways, and more plausibly functional.

 

[J.T.B.]

In "The Omega Glory," when Tracy chases Kirk and they have a street fight, the writer's intention was evidently to have Tracy shooting his phaser while running, and the beams splatter rain barrels and whatnot. Willy nilly phaser fire on the run, having a physical impact (not just "film dissolves") on actual objects.

Would that be a good idea, though? Once you show a phaser blowing up a rainbarrel, doesn't that raise the question of why it doesn't blow up a person? I remember some people objecting to the effect of a hand phaser blast in ST3 being inconsistent with TOS phaser fire.

And if we're talking about visual or technical things, I think that Space: 1999 had better tech designs than Trek in a lot of ways -- more detailed and plausible equipment, better ship design (although Eagles and shuttlecraft both have the same problems with lack of airlocks and inconsistent interior and exterior proportions), etc.

Yeah, I think the big factor there is 2001. It's interesting to speculate on what ST would have been like if 2001 had come out before season one.

On that note, I'd have loved to see more sophisticated model and multi-element VFX photography as seen in 2001, but understand that could be a budget-breaker.

On the contrary, Space 1999s Eagles were very consistent with their interiors and exteriors!

No they weren't!


Now where did all that headroom go?

And the unconventional inverted-V shape of their hand weapons seemed more removed from modern guns than the pistol design of the Phaser 2. So they did look more advanced in some ways, and more plausibly functional.

Maybe, but I'm very favorable to the Phaser 2 design. It looks serious but futuristic due to its streamlined shape and inverting the traditional pistol form (long part is at the back instead of the front). Also, does anyone know: Was the S1999 hand laser originally intended to be a less-than-lethal weapon only? I know that wasn't the case as the show went on.

 

[Ssosmcin]

Unless I'm mistaken, Voyage to the Bottom of the Sea used a Fantastic Voyage blood vessel interior to represent the inside of a whale. And I think they had to film after hours, because the set was needed for the movie during the day. Ssosmcin might know this stuff. VTTBOTS is his thing.

That’s up for debate. The Fantastic Voyage sets were definitely used in a few episodes of Lost in Space, but careful examination of the Voyage episode “Jonah and the Whale” vs Fantastic Voyage shows none of the film sets being used on screen. There was even a TV Guide article of the time showing the construction of the whale interior for the episode. While some people questioned the special construction of the set using Irwin Allen’s frugal attitude as the basis, Irwin absolutely spent the money on high profile episodes. “Jonah and the Whale” was kicking off the new color season and there was always more money for the premiere episodes.

 

[Shawnster]

Now where did all that headroom go?

Dimensionally transcendental

 

[Christopher]

That’s up for debate. The Fantastic Voyage sets were definitely used in a few episodes of Lost in Space, but careful examination of the Voyage episode “Jonah and the Whale” vs Fantastic Voyage shows none of the film sets being used on screen. There was even a TV Guide article of the time showing the construction of the whale interior for the episode. While some people questioned the special construction of the set using Irwin Allen’s frugal attitude as the basis, Irwin absolutely spent the money on high profile episodes. “Jonah and the Whale” was kicking off the new color season and there was always more money for the premiere episodes.

There's an episode of Allen's Land of the Giants that involved the crew being trapped inside a giant seashell, and it turns out it was written to make use of a leftover set piece from Fox's Doctor Dolittle.


That reminds of something from other SFTV that I wouldn't necessarily say I wanted to see in Star Trek, but that I'm somewhat surprised that we didn't see. One thing that was done by a number of shows, notably The Time Tunnel, was to write episodes around stock footage from old movies, as a way to insert cinematic-level spectacle into a TV episode while also saving money with the equivalent of a clip show. (The Twilight Zone did this too, using ship footage and set pieces from Forbidden Planet in a number of episodes.) Some later shows like the first seasons of The Incredible Hulk and MacGyver wrote episodes around movie footage too. So I'm surprised ST never employed such a useful money-saving move. Granted, Paramount didn't have that many color sci-fi movies in its vaults, but there were some that might've provided usable FX footage, e.g. When Worlds Collide, Conquest of Space, Robinson Crusoe on Mars, or Crack in the World. And they could always have used historical-epic footage Time Tunnel-style in parallel-Earth episodes.

 

[johnnybear]

No they weren't!
View attachment 12921

Now where did all that headroom go?

Yes, I'd forgotten about that Eagle cockpit blunder!!!
JB