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Spoilers Star Wars: The Rise of Skywalker - Grading & Discussion

Grade the movie...


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I would be thrilled if Disney got a hold of Star Trek, and did for it what they did for Star Wars. Disney is pretty much the best thing to ever happen to Star Wars.

I'd have to disagree with you on this somewhat. I think Disney is the best thing to happen to star wars when they hire the right people for the franchise. As evidenced by The Mandolorian. However I think Disney dropped the ball in regards to the Skywalker Saga. The Force Awaken was a strong start to the prequel trilogy and I love Rey, she's not a mary sue, there i said it. But I think they royally fudged up letting Rian Johnson anywhere near the franchise.

The Last Jedi is probably one of the worst movies I've ever seen, Contrived story, weirdly paced, badly edited and filled with characters who make idiotic decisions for the sake of plot. The Rise of Skywalker suffers from clearly having to fix Rian Johnson's mistakes and it's quite blatant how the film ignores much of what was set up in TLJ. Had Disney let JJ Abrams hold the reigns for the entire sequel trilogy or possibly sought Favreau's involvement, I think the franchise would have been better for it.
 
I'd have to disagree with you on this somewhat. I think Disney is the best thing to happen to star wars when they hire the right people for the franchise. As evidenced by The Mandolorian. However I think Disney dropped the ball in regards to the Skywalker Saga. The Force Awaken was a strong start to the prequel trilogy and I love Rey, she's not a mary sue, there i said it. But I think they royally fudged up letting Rian Johnson anywhere near the franchise.

The Last Jedi is probably one of the worst movies I've ever seen, Contrived story, weirdly paced, badly edited and filled with characters who make idiotic decisions for the sake of plot. The Rise of Skywalker suffers from clearly having to fix Rian Johnson's mistakes and it's quite blatant how the film ignores much of what was set up in TLJ. Had Disney let JJ Abrams hold the reigns for the entire sequel trilogy or possibly sought Favreau's involvement, I think the franchise would have been better for it.
Wow. I couldn't disagree more. TLJ is the strongest of the sequel trilogy films. At first, I disliked how Luke was presented, but i've come to realize Johnson was making him an analog of Kenobi and giving him a redemption arc. TFA was too similar to ANH, TROS I've only seen once, but think it is probably the weakest of the three films.
I can't comment yet on the Mandalorian since I've yet to see it.
 
Wow. I couldn't disagree more. TLJ is the strongest of the sequel trilogy films. At first, I disliked how Luke was presented, but i've come to realize Johnson was making him an analog of Kenobi and giving him a redemption arc. TFA was too similar to ANH, TROS I've only seen once, but think it is probably the weakest of the three films.
I can't comment yet on the Mandalorian since I've yet to see it.
The stuff with Luke, Rey and kylo ren in The Last Jedi was the highlight of the entire trilogy. Johnson hit the nail on the head when he had Luke explain that the Jedi were responsible for the rise of the Sith and that they deserved to be swept into the dustbin of history. Luke seeing the cycle repeating itself with Ben and wanting to break the circle was an entirely believable reaction. His single moment of weakness made him only human, and a character that is human is far more interesting than a character that is a legend.

The rest of The Last Jedi, now that was garbage.
 
The stuff with Luke, Rey and kylo ren in The Last Jedi was the highlight of the entire trilogy. Johnson hit the nail on the head when he had Luke explain that the Jedi were responsible for the rise of the Sith and that they deserved to be swept into the dustbin of history. Luke seeing the cycle repeating itself with Ben and wanting to break the circle was an entirely believable reaction. His single moment of weakness made him only human, and a character that is human is far more interesting than a character that is a legend.

The rest of The Last Jedi, now that was garbage.
Johnson did a decent job in giving us a SW film that followed the structure established by Lucas. You had a major space battle, a land battle, a betrayal of our heroes, a mose eisley type scene, jedi training scenes, the search for a macguffin, a chase scene, a temptation to the dark side scene, a light saber duel at the end where the good guy dies, etc. Yet, the film feels original, not derived like TFA. The only part i hated were those barn kids and the talk about Ben having too much Vader in him, suggesting biology is destiny. The early films suggested going to the dark side was a choice.
 
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Living the experience, knowing the history, or being open to people who do, could perhaps open skeptics, who just see Finn as a fun-loving, fun character, as to why he might be problematic. Compare him to Mace Windu and Lando. Both were supporting characters, but both were depicted much better. There was subtle complexity to both characters and both were competent and bad ass in a way Finn could've been, but wasn't.

I think it stems from the way the character is a fish out of water and how that informed Boyega's portrayal of the character. Mace and Lando were competent and badass. I think Finn is shown to be quite competent but he's not a slick badass. He comports himself well with a blaster and with a lightsaber when called upon, he's a good starship gunner and his knowledge of imperial workings helps formulate the rebel's plans.

It is interesting to see how the character is viewed from different perspectives than my own. They could've swapped Finn and Poe but I think Finn is a way more interesting, more human person who actually has an arc where he grows from a panicked deserter pining for the first girl he's known to a resistance fighter fighting for a cause. Poe is basically just always Poe though he's both badass and competent. It's actually a side you don't get to see from a lot of black sci-fi characters who tend to always be stoic and cool though I don't want to seem oblivious to the criticisms and where they're stemming from.

I do see the sanitation thing is something that could have been left behind.
 
I always thought Bespin was a gas giant.

Kor
Speaking of Bespin, that was a near disaster with that Star destroyer as it fell from space. That would have put a whole downer on the movie.

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I prefer the original idea of Luke's hand flying through space with the lightsaber and landing on Jakku.
 
I think it stems from the way the character is a fish out of water and how that informed Boyega's portrayal of the character. Mace and Lando were competent and badass. I think Finn is shown to be quite competent but he's not a slick badass. He comports himself well with a blaster and with a lightsaber when called upon, he's a good starship gunner and his knowledge of imperial workings helps formulate the rebel's plans.

It is interesting to see how the character is viewed from different perspectives than my own. They could've swapped Finn and Poe but I think Finn is a way more interesting, more human person who actually has an arc where he grows from a panicked deserter pining for the first girl he's known to a resistance fighter fighting for a cause. Poe is basically just always Poe though he's both badass and competent. It's actually a side you don't get to see from a lot of black sci-fi characters who tend to always be stoic and cool though I don't want to seem oblivious to the criticisms and where they're stemming from.

I do see the sanitation thing is something that could have been left behind.

I agree with you that it's very interesting to see how different people view Finn or Star Wars in general. As a black genre fan, I've long contended with lackluster (at best often) depictions of black characters in many of the stories that I otherwise love or find interesting. Where you might see stoicism I often see the creators/writers not really having any idea who these characters are or what they want to do with them, but yet feeling a need (or activist/ studio pressure) to be inclusive. So they got to include a black, or black characters, but then they usually stop there, and sometimes celebrate just that step. But making, or leaving black characters, as the 'cool', sometimes silent, noble warrior (savage), supporting character is an easy way to go (and honestly one I find more acceptable than out of breath, panicky Finn). It's not always patently offensive, but it also winds up putting the character into a corner. Other times we get the comic relief character, either a jokester or the butt of jokes, and now I'm seeing more of the black nerd kind of character. Of course there's long been criminals. And we also get blacks in the background, generally mute, but they do add splashes of color and the illusion of a more inclusive, progressive envisioned world.

These are different takes, but mostly at the end of the day almost none of these characters have agency, have interior lives, almost all live (some willingly giving their lives) for the white main characters. Almost all the black males are sexless or we don't get to see them having sexual relationships onscreen. If they are lucky, they might have a wife like Stargate SG-1's Teal'c off planet. Even LeVar Burton has pointed out how TNG made Geordi an eunuch. While some fans identified with Geordi being socially awkward, I noticed even when I was a teenager that this character doesn't have a love life, and I saw that almost every other TNG character did, and it got my attention. Geordi's love life was haphazard at best, and came as an afterthought to me, which is generally how I feel black characters are often treated, even when it comes at the hands of generally progressive writers who don't seemingly harbor any intention malice or trenchant racial bias. It just 'happens' that these characters are sidelined or underdeveloped, or poorly developed.

Let me say that there's nothing necessarily wrong with depicting sexless or socially awkward black male characters in genre works, or fiction in general. They do exist in the real world, however, I'm looking at it from the point of view that if you're only getting x amount of black characters and then even smaller numbers that get some development, then I want to see more fully realized characterization. I want to see these characters experience the ups and downs of love, sex, romance, just like other characters. I want to see them be heroes, and sometimes villains as well (albeit not stereotypical), and we get to see the world/universe hang on the decisions they make. Further, I want to see how the black experience informs those characters' world views and actions and that we see value in African/African Diaspora cultures and experiences more onscreen.

And if almost all the black characters (socially awkward or super cool) are still having the same 'problems' when it comes to love, romance, sex, then there's something else going on there. There's a blindspot or reluctance to make these characters three-dimensional. Inclusion or representation (whatever that might mean) are about all Hollywood seems able to do, or care about. Getting in the door is the first step, a seat at the table is the next, and now it's time to hear these characters speak and learn more about their stories.

And it's nothing against the actors, including Boyega in Star Wars. Whatever positive energy is there from Finn I credit that more to Boyega than either Abrams or Johnson. I was looking at some of The Last Jedi last night (a glutton for punishment I suppose) and I had forgotten that it was Finn's idea to go to the Star Destroyer, which led to the Canto Bight side quest. Granted this all ended in failure and was basically pointless, and he got led around by Rose, but still it did show Finn using some of his First Order knowledge. I wish this aspect to the character had been better depicted and fleshed out. Also it made no sense for the Resistance to embrace Finn as easily as they did. I wish we had seen more ambivalence and hostility toward the character, which could've led to some nice dramatic moments. As it stands, Finn was motivated to run away in Force Awakens and at the start of The Last Jedi. The only reason he hung around was for Rey, at the time for inexplicable reasons. Abrams/Disney even messed up with the idea that Rey is the first girl Finn's known. Females (like Jannah) were First Order stormtroopers. We also see females on the bridge of First Order ships and Phasma was his commander, so he would've seen women before. Further, the idea of conditioning didn't prevent the First Order stormtroopers from showing comical sides or bits of personality, like in Force Awakens or Rise of Skywalker. So I can't say that their conditioning wiped out, or wiped out completely human nature. The fact that they had to be reconditioned from time to time, that could have been one of the reasons for it, the biological drive breaking through.

I think Finn's character arc became more interesting during The Last Jedi when he started to shed his fear of the First Order. He defeated personal nemesis Phasma (with some help) but really when he was ready to sacrifice himself to save the Resistance on Crait (which would've been a satisfying finish to his arc for me, but that was ruined by Rose's save, and more Johnson subversion). Abrams throws in the Force sensitive thing, but of course there's no time to develop it further, or to build on his relationship with Jannah and the other First Order deserters. And Boyega has said he's not going to do a Disney Plus show. He might change his mind in the future though, and though it seems both he and Daisy Ridley are done with Star Wars, who knows if they will feel that way in a few years, and they might be back for Episode 10.

Overall, just about all of the sequel trilogy characters were poorly developed, not just Finn. I think Disney was banking on the strength of Star Wars as a brand to bring in the older, and presumably, whiter fan base while diversifying the lead roles would make the franchise more appealing to diverse audiences. I don't think that's necessarily a bad idea, but Disney forgot to actually make interesting characters.

I do think Dameron had an arc. It wasn't there in Force Awakens, but he had to learn how to be a leader in both The Last Jedi and the Rise of Skywalker. I do think he was turned into a hotheaded quasi-sexist jerk though in The Last Jedi to give him this arc, and then he was made into a spice (drug) runner in Rise of Skywalker to also give him a backstory (perhaps to make him more like Han Solo). To me, it's just goes to show how the sequel was not planned out well, and they were making things up as they went along. So, Finn could be bumbling one moment, but then an ace shot the next, etc. Rey was looking for identity in Force Awakens, told it didn't matter in The Last Jedi, but then that it did again in The Rise of Skywalker. We still don't quite get who she is, or what she wants to do, but at least Abrams finally gave her a personal stake in the story, even if her struggle was reminiscent of Luke and Vader. I wish we had gotten Rey talking more with Palpatine to see if she could 'turn' him. Granted he's the ultimate evil, but he was still her grandfather, and I wish we had gotten more between them, but the film was so rushed there was no time to flesh it out. I wish Disney had just made an Episode 10 at the same time they were filming Rise of Skywalker, end Episode 9 on a massive cliffhanger, and then have at the end of the film, let us know there was an Episode 10 coming in May or something.
 
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How would Luke's hand and saber have ended up in outer space?
The same way the Emperor survived been thrown down a shaft, blown up and got to Exegol?

Saw the film for the second time today. Definitely sits better with a second viewing as there was just too much to process the first time.
 
Well, God damn, I didn't know you spoke for all black and half-black folks on the planet...

So, after being exposed as an ass who made one racist assumption after another, you double down with more BS that illustrates just how ignorant you are about this entire matter. Few have buried themselves so deeply by doubling down on racist attacks.

Though maybe they'd get more traction if you and others weren't constantly slinging shit at these films trying to get anything to stick to them

Yes, because defending a sequel to the point of attempting to minimize or dismiss valid issues and/or demeaning others (this thread is overflowing with pro-TROS members doing jus that) is what matters. Yeah. Sure.

I am black, with two black parents, and I get exactly what Trek_God 1 is saying here when it comes to Finn. I was grating my teeth during Force Awakens as I watched him stumbling, bumbling, sweating, and chasing Rey, who clearly didn't need or want his help.

Thank you for your reality-based insight on the Finn matter. So many had the same reaction, with some becoming visibly angry that in a film establishing a set of new heroes, the one black male was a shame-inducing throwback to Old Hollywood's enforced, racist portrayal of black males.

And though The Last Jedi did a bit better by the character, he still had to first be taken down by Rose and then mostly led around by her, and she even stopped him from making his big sacrifice, and then planted a kiss on him, so he was a relatively weak character with no agency

Agreed about Rose's influence; from the start of TLJ, Finn was a bumbling fool who "needed" to be pulled by the nose; for a so-called "hero" from the events of the previous film, he exhibited no traits of one who had come into his own. There was no developmental evidence of his acknowledge any growth / attempt to reclaim a lost identity. It was in truth:

"well, we have this black fool character, and we have to do something with him, so concoct this pointless side story where he's wrapped up in a shallow, in-name-only commentary animal rights, yet Finn never, ever has scenes where his life and the effects of being kidnapped as a child are ever explored in his struggle against the antagonists. Yeah..that'll work, or whatever."

He might never say it but I have to wonder if he realized how regressive the Finn character was, how it went back to old stereotypes, particularly when it came to black males (cowardly, incompetent, comical, fixated on white women) or media depictions (as maids, butlers, or the Magical Negro/Black Best Friend kind of tropes where black characters only exist to help the white main characters. That they have no interior lives of their own, no agency).

Indeed.Like Mantan Moreland or "Rochester", he was a Black Buffoon spending most of his time being subservient to everyone else (when he wasn't stumbling, running away and knocked around), with a stereotypical subservient job in sanitation, because ...of course that had to be his job. He never had anything coming close to a sense of discovered pride in who he was (never referencing his original life, or even suspecting what it could have been the way ROTJ-Leia had memories of her mother) or unique voice of his own. Despite Boyega's billing among the new cast, he was a treated like a throwaway supporting character never created to be treated like anything close to a strong character who had a real purpose in that series.

Disney certainly patted themselves on the back with the inclusion of Finn thinking that would be enough. But when it came to his depiction they went right into some of the worst stereotypes and it's strange they would do that, when most genre and other entertainment had refined the idea of the mostly neutered black best friend/supporting character.

...and coming from the entertainment business which is very liberal at a near 100% level, it says much that black characters--especially males are cast in prominent properties end up marginalized/tokenized (James Olsen/Supergirl), or deliberately placed in a racially demeaning role (Finn/Star Wars sequels).

If Star Wars thought Finn would get more blacks, African-Americans in particular I'm thinking about here, more into Star Wars, the lackluster opening weekend numbers of black moviegoers was proof that Finn was not a draw. If anything, I could see that character pushing people away.

Its clear that he did. After seeing what Disney/LFL did with a new black "lead" character in TFA, there were feelings of outrage, while others--who had been Star Wars fans since the OT years--were now completely turned off to the series. I've had conversations with friends who feel they were disrespected by Disney/newLFL in the creation/use of Finn, and they were.

Basically Finn was a slave, a child soldier whose name was given to him by Dameron, and he never even disputed it and just rolled with it. He never picked out a last name for himself (to be fair, Rey didn't either, but her search for identity was very important to her character. With Finn he never seemed to be troubled about his origins or family).

This is something that led to heated reactions from many black audience members--the runaway slave knows nothing, allows someone else to name him, direct his actions, and Finn did not have as much a single emotion of protest to someone else giving him whatever they deemed appropriate.

Beyond offensive.

Even Finn's general rank was given to him by Dameron. The films never gave him much chance to use his First Order knowledge, to have that be what made him stand out.

Yes, as I've said time after time about what he should have been, beingThe punchline of making him a janitor (as opposed to say an engineer working on Starkiller Base) was too good for Disney not to use.[/quote]

Utterly stripped of dignity. He was such an Old Hollywood racial stereotype that the only thing left for Finn to do was to break out in a dance, while singing how "Happys I's is ta' be a janitor, suh!"

I also get why some non-blacks, or even some other black folks might not get why some blacks would have issues with Finn. It reminds me of a scene in a very good, but underrated film, Dragon, a Bruce Lee biopic. He's on a date with his soon-to-be wife and they are watching Breakfast at Tiffany's-if I'm correct-and everyone is laughing at Mickey Rooney's "Asian" character, including Lee's date. But there's a great moment when she looks over at him and sees how angry Rooney's depiction is making him, and just seeing that dawn of understanding, the empathy in her eyes, and she suggests they leave.

Excellent comparison. For some, they have no historical awareness / empathy for the very people they spend every waking day claiming they support, otherwise, they would understand why some black audiences resented how Finn was created/used. Instead, there's one highly questionable defense of him after another.

When it comes to humor, how many times was the joke on Finn or he was the butt of the joke compared to Rey or Dameron? Finn was the comic relief far more than either of those characters. Perhaps Hux was the worst recipient of this kind of dismissive treatment, but you can put the destruction of the New Republic and the defeat of the Resistance in The Last Jedi, basically winning the galaxy, all while he was there, which makes him less of a joke than the films treated him as.

Yes. As I've said, of the three main characters, Finn was the source of constant humor, while Rey was not by any stretch of the imagination, and Poe was that weak wanna-be mix of being NextGen / surrogate Han/Devil-may-care character, but not a clown.

When I was a kid I would've had no problem wanting to be or play Lando on a playground, and if I had been a kid when the prequels were out, no problem with Windu either. But who wants to be Finn?

No one. Few kids ever see buffoons as someone to be/emulate to any degree. That's not the nature of how kids think when looking at adults in heroic fiction.
 
After seeing this movie, I find the notion that TROS was weighed down by TLJ to be silly on it face. (1) The emperor didn't need to come back. (2) There was no reason to cover Adam Driver's face in that stupid mask. (3) Most importantly, the plot was an overcomplicated, overlong Easter egg hunt that padded out the story.
 
Why would the bombs fall down unless pushed?
Without going into the specifics of the scene in question, things would "fall." The ships are hovering above the planet--they are not even in orbit--so any object that someone put out a window would fall toward the planet. Moreover, any objects (particularly in the absence of friction) will fall toward one another. That's how gravity works.
 
This was my first thought as well and, after seeing it a second time yesterday, I think that's exactly what was going on. Explains Snoke's Force powers in addition to the voices which Palps said he was responsible for..

Was there even just one Snoke? We a see a vat full of Snoke parts.

Because of the multiple Snokes, appereantly, I find it hard to believe Snoke could link Kylo and Rey without Palpy knowing about it.
 
Because of the multiple Snokes, appereantly, I find it hard to believe Snoke could link Kylo and Rey without Palpy knowing about it.
Agreed. The vat of Snokes is a nice nod to Kylo's comment to Rey in TLJ how the two of them mind linking would kill her. Well, it seems the linking did kill Snoke a couple times.
 
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