That only illustrates the main issue. The writers are gutless and afraid to take any real chances. You pretty much have to go all the way back to Tommy to find anything - franchise wide - that had any kind of lasting subtextual effect.
Spoilers Crisis on Infinite Earths Discussion (CW Event Spoiler Thread)
- Thread starter Mark_Nguyen
- Start date
I just don't care for the idea that criminals "deserve" to be tortured and terrorized. Nobody deserves to be tortured. That's an excuse used by bullies and sadists who get off on their power over others.
It's not about the cold definition of a trope, it's about whether the use of a trope is a positive or a negative. When people complain about reset buttons being a bad thing, it's in the context of their use as a copout to avoid meaningful story development or consequences. My point is that the writers here do intend CoIE to have lasting consequences.
That's not true. It set up arcs that played out through the whole of The Flash's third season and beyond. It was because of Flashpoint that Savitar was created and Wally West became a speedster. It was because of Flashpoint that the Dominators became aware of Earth's metahumans and launched their Invasion! to destroy them. It's because of Flashpoint that John Diggle Jr. exists and becomes a villain in the dystopian future in Arrow. And it's because of Flashpoint that Eobard Thawne existed as a time remnant, which drove the entire season 2 arc of Legends.
https://arrow.fandom.com/wiki/Flashpoint_(event)
Wally got powers. Caitlin got powers. Cisco's brother died. Barry suddenly had Draco Malfoy as a co-worker. Diggle's daughter became a son. Ralph Dibny implicitly returned from the dead (his name was an Easter egg on a casualty list in season 1).
I always got the impression that Batwoman takes place in the “perpetual now” ala every season of 24 was the perpetual now and not the late 2020s if you actually tried to make sense of the time leaps between seasons. Yes this season started in last season but for all intents and purposes she’s in the present now
^ Kate got pulled from early 2019 to late 2019 by Lyla, and she'll likely be sent back to early 2019 after Earth-1 gets restored.
What do you base this on and why would she have to be pulled from the past? It's pure supposition on your part.
All 8 pre-CoIE episodes of Batwoman took place from November of 2018 to January of 2019 based on event chronology and sequence of event progression.
CoIE takes place in December 2019.
Therefore, Kate was pulled out of time and brought forward to December 2019 by Lyla.
Oh please, Lex Luthor would NEVER replace anyone but Superman with himself. <--- That was 100% true top the character, and Cryer's portrayal of Luthor.
I think Batwoman is supposed to be caught up in the present day. There’s been nothing onscreen to support Lyla pulling her out of January 2019. Oliver’s timeline is all messed up too. They had Mia in the fall of 2019 at the earliest and he got to spend some months with them until the Monitor claimed him so he was probably already into 2020. Yet no mention of that really ever especially when they came back to the now present (our present) after being on Earth 2. It’s all perpetual now.
I agree. It's a sliding time scale, just like the comics. You just have to squint and let your suspension of disbelief take over even more then you have to for superhero fiction in the first place. Not a big deal.
Digificwriter is taking this far more seriously than it needs to be taken.
If you say so. I'd bet money they'll return her to her own show right where they picked her up at and she'll still be concurrent with the other shows.
And you'll be wrong.
During her conversation with Kara aboard the Waverider, Kate uses the term "just" to describe the recency of her stepmother's murder, while in the same conversation Kara uses the term "last year" to reference the events of the Elseworlds crossover, and it is documentable fact that Batwoman Season 1 began in late 2018 whilst Supergirl Season 5, The Flash Season 6, and Arrow Season 8 all began in October 2019 (The Flash Season 6 actually started in May 2019 before jumping 6 months forward in time within the first act of its Season premiere).
I finally got caught up on Crisis. I really liked how they handle the death of Earth-90's Flash. It was my first exposure to superhero anything as a kid, getting to see him go out trying to save both the current Flash and all of reality was a good send-off for him. I really loved they had the flashback to the old show.
I have only seen the first two crisis episode and as a Superman fan I love especially the second one.
I think that Routh still is a great Superman, can't they give him a Superman show instead of tyler hoechlyn?
And did the Welling Superman really give up being Superman after like 5 years?
Because his daughters are at least 3 or 4 years old.
I think that Routh still is a great Superman, can't they give him a Superman show instead of tyler hoechlyn?
And did the Welling Superman really give up being Superman after like 5 years?
Because his daughters are at least 3 or 4 years old.
They'd have to Bleep him out or, even better, force him to say alternative words a la The Good Place and have similar jokes about it.
Here's a rough estimation of Clark and Lois' timeline for Earth-167 starting with the events of the Smallville finale and going forward, taking into account both the Season 11 comics and the Arrowverse's CoIE:
2011 - Clark learns to fly and defeats Darkseid and Apokalips
2012/2013- Smallville Season 11
2018 - Clark and Lois discuss getting married; Lex Luthor is elected President of the United States; Chloe Sullivan-Queen reads a comic book about Clark to her son
2022/2023 or 2028 (dependent on whether or not Clark and Lois' appearance in CoIE P2 takes place 10 years after the events of Smallville Season 11 or 10 years after the 2018 flashforwards from the Smallville Season 10 finale) - Arrowverse Iris, Clark, Lois, and Lex Luthor show up on the Kent farm to warn/recruit and attempt to kill Clark, respectively; Clark reveals to Arrowverse Lex that he's given up his powers in order to raise a family and punches him in the face, causing Arrowverse Lex to retreat; Lois comes out and tells him that their girls made a "mess" that they want to show him
If the CoIE appearance by Smallville/Earth-167 Clark and Lois happens in 2022/2023, he was officially Superman for between 6-8 years, but if their CoIE appearance happens in 2028, he was officially Superman for at least 12 years.
I'm personally inclined to believe that we're looking at a 2022/2023 date rather than a 2028 date - even if it means that Clark was officially Superman for less time - because it would account for Clark referring to Earth-167 Lex as "the President" rather than "the former President" since 2022 would have been an election year on Earth-167.
Agreed; he was the answer to the question of how far can/will a hero go in seeking justice. The character is one of the most unique ever created for the superhero comic genre, and next to no one would be talking about him today if he was just another smiling-wink-to-the-reader guy in tights. The Spectre was and remains a wonderfully complex character because he is the horrific side of heroism, which some should come to grips with.
A movie would be the best option to explore a no-holds-barred version, especially the way he dealt with evildoers in his early interpretaions.
True. There is no eye roll inducing notion of his being a "bully" or sadist if one understands his one-of-a-kind, otherworldly position he did not want, and how that reshapes his view of crime and punishment. He is not some serial killer or thug.
Difference of opinion, I guess, but i see most of that as plot points that would have been brought about anyway, and Flashpoint was just the McGuffin to point to as easy explanation they used for a while. I don't watch Arrow, so if the biggest change was something that happened in another show, it's not super helpful to Flash.
They introduced Wally West, he was going to be a speedster no matter what vehicle they used to get there. Caitlin explicitly did NOT get her powers this way, she's had them since she was a child. Maybe Flashpoint kicked them into overdrive for a bit, but she's always been a bit frosty
Cisco's brother and Draco were the 'real' changes, plus the setup for Ralph later. Of those, the brother bit mattered for a couple weeks and then didn't come up agaon, Draco (and basically all of Barry's side hustle) don't show up anymore, and Ralph was just an easter egg at that point. Could have blamed Savitar and Dominators on anything, so if it wasn't this, it would have been something else. But you're talking about future plot points, whereas I was talking more about changes/impacts. Except Cisco being pissed at Barry for a minute, show basically continued exactly as is, no change in makeup or tone. And they've even mostly forgotten it, highlighting the shift in Killer Frost backstory for example. Or even Flash talking about his start as the Flash to Caitlin and Cisco (feels funny because these two weren't the ones that experienced that entire first year with). But exactly like Harry Kim on Voyager, none of it mattered and everything was smoothed back to normal quickly, forgetting anything was ever different.
Just to try and force something, I'd have tried to have a character with the show from the start, only to vanish and not be recovered in Flashpoint (more important than Cisco's brother, an actual cast member) so there was a lasting impact to the viewer. Or used it to introduce a new permanent character that was 'always' part of the team that Barry has to deal with. Just feels like the storyline stuck around, and prompted new ones, but the giant impactful EVENT didn't end up leaving a mark itself.
Not explaining it well, but trying to say I want bigger impacts. Like in Agents of Shield, where you could argue lots of stories prompted future stories, but the events of Winter Soldier had a MASSIVE impact and changeup on the show. Seasons 1 and 2 aren't even the same show, basically. Don't finish a huge Crisis event with everything back to normal except we can't restore Flash99 or random Earth 12345678. they weren't a huge part of the series. (and yes, aware of the Oliver impact, but will say that show is ending and was going to have lasting impact to close out the series no matter what the crossover entailed).
Guess I want a bigger shake-up. Maybe we'll still get it, but hoping it's just not a couple speeches about the true meaning of Christmas and then the Legends spending the season shuttling people around to get everyone back to the 'right' Earth...
I think that's splitting hairs. I mean, that's just how stories are told -- you plan to do something and then figure out a way to get there. Saying that it invalidates it if it was planned in advance would require tossing out virtually every story point ever. I mean, Deep Space Nine would've brought the Romulans into the Dominion War eventually anyway, so does that make "In the Pale Moonlight" meaningless because they could've chosen to do it a different way?
The point is, they chose to do "Flashpoint" in such a way that it played an integral role in the overall story arc, as opposed to having it be a side story disconnected to everything else. When "reset button" storytelling is discussed as a negative, it's in the context of cases where it's used to avoid having any consequences for a story. The writers of "Flashpoint" did not avoid giving the story consequences; they made its consequences integral to their planned narrative. They made it the reason for the things they planned to do, rather than having it be completely unconnected to them.
And I'm sure the same will be true of the events of CoIE. The producers have said explicitly that its events will directly set up story and character arcs for the rest of the season. The Legends showrunner says that the consequences of the Crisis will drive their season's story arc. Batwoman's showrunner says that her encounter with "Rock-Bottom Bruce Wayne" (as the aftershow dubbed him) will inform her character arc as a vigilante going forward. And so on. That is not reset-button writing in the way that matters. It is integrating the event into their ongoing narrative rather than separating it from it.
That was not established until something like two seasons later. And we still don't know whether she did or didn't have those powers in childhood in the original timeline. At the very least, Flashpoint changed things so that her powers were active rather than dormant.
It's incomprehensible how you can claim those are two different things. What are changes going to have an impact on if not future plot points? Costume design? The catering budget?
They did that. Julian Albert. Tom Felton. Draco Freaking Malfoy. A series regular in season 3 who suddenly appeared as Barry's established co-worker as a result of the timeline shift. He was a main character throughout that entire season. Not to mention that Savitar, the big bad of season 3, was created by Flashpoint as well. So they did it with two central characters.
As far as Crisis goes, they've already introduced a new future regular in Ryan Choi, and the events of this season in Arrow (all of which have tied directly to Crisis and been the result of the Monitor's actions) have set up the impending spinoff with Oliver's daughter. Does it matter if those new characters are introduced because of rewritten history or not? By your own argument, that's just a plot device for doing what they planned to do anyway. So why does it matter how the change is made as long as it's made?