Is Kirk really to blame for the events in 'The Wrath of Khan'?

[valkyrie013]

So, lets take Ceti Alpha 5.. Was it inhabitied? Don't think so, wasn't in Enterprise.. So it was just Khan and Crew Vs the world.. Which they didn't have any type of space vessel, hell not even a car.. it was a prison in everything but a name, and it being barely M class didn't help..
So, in 2267, Kirk sentenced the crew of the bottany bay to life in prison pretty much..
So from Kirk's persepective.. he couldn't take the bottany bay crew back to Earth, or a penal planet without there being consquences.. so he took the best option available to him, Maroon all on the planet, which was Class M at the time.. so given a chance to live and thrive if they could.. A colony..
Starfleet probably signed off on it because they didn't want to deal with it..

Now, thru bad luck.. Ceti Alpha 6 exploded ( Book explanation, the Shedai conduit near by exploded and took the planet with it, or a rogue black hole destroyed it.. ) and there was an explanation of the Reliant in the book adressing the missing planet.. saying the only charts are from an old probe, ( Which doesn't explain that the Enterprise dropped them off.. not like they turned off there scanners..) So basically a planet exploded and they thought it was V for some reason.. maybe VI was a like V post disaster and they thought 5 bit the dust.. or the orbit shifted to VI's orbit..
So maybe starfleet did see a planet go boom, and when a probe finally got there, they saw V not there for some reason, and just updated the charts to reflect, and checkov, none the wiser just thougt .. oh.. VI. .ok no Khan..

 

[Shaka Zulu]

At best Khan came pretty close to taking over the Enterprise, but in the end failed.

As to who is to blame for the events of TWOK, obviously it's Carol Marcus.

No Tenacity, as I said, nobody is to blame for what happend. And Khan only failed because Kirk was lucky enough to be able to kick Khan's ass during CQC with Khan in Engineering during the events of Space Seed. If any blame is to be given (for what happened in TSFS,) it's to David Marcus for using protomatter in the Genesis device to shortcut the Genesis process.

 

[Tenacity]

He offered the world ORDER!!!!

Khan: "You want fries with that?"

And Khan only failed because Kirk was lucky enough to be able to kick Khan's ass

Kirk was able to win because one of people Khan came to trust wasn't loyal, McGivers.

And the fight wasn't luck, Khan was using his strength and brute force, Kirk used his mind. When the rod/pole unexpectedly became available Kirk immediately change tactics and used it to his best advantage.

 

[Qonundrum]

Reward? Nice planet? Did you see the Ceti Eel? Who knows what other vicious predators were there. Maybe Kirk knew about the ecosystem, and figure Khan would be f*cked within a few months. The explosion of Ceti Alpha VI was icing on the cake...

... Maybe it was purposefully caused by Section 31!!!?!?!?! (just to bring this thread in line with those in Picard and Discovery...).

Nope. Kirk was too busy hightailing it around the galaxy to continually teach loooooove to every new tail he could find. Stupid and easily debunkable stereotype accord Kirk aside, Kirk's the captain of a ship and is too busy being diplomatic and following up on orders from Starfleet to go look up his diary, re-read notes from a zillion years ago, and to actually follow up. Any logs he recorded would then make the issue up for Starfleet to follow up on.

The Reliant being ordered by Starfleet to do Marcus' bidding -- there's a planet that met the criteria, off they go, hope nobody was there. Saying "Don't go there" might have the opposite effect. But Timo said it all best, by far, on page 1.

As for the surprise attack by the "Khan-andeered" Reliant, the scene was handled well enough. Right down to Kirk feeling excessive self-guilt over Saavik's savage berating of him in parroting the big blue book of rules.

 

[BillJ]

So, lets take Ceti Alpha 5.. Was it inhabitied? Don't think so, wasn't in Enterprise..

I don't think they said one way or the other. Just that it was savage, and compared it to Australia.

 

[DonIago]

While I don't think you can really blame Kirk for not checking up on CA5 personally (he goes where he's ordered to go), it does seem a little bothersome that apparently nobody else in Starfleet ever checked up on him either. I'm not suggesting beaming down, but at least doing a quick pass-and-scan. Maybe drop off supplies depending on how charitable SF was feeling. If it were an HR review, I'd call Kirk's evident indifference the difference between Meets Expectations and Exceeds Expectations.

If you want to make things sinister, perhaps someone lied and told Kirk everything was going fine on CA5. Heck, we can blame S31 for what happened to CA6 if we're so inclined.

There's probably some blame to go around for giving Khan access to the ship's tech manuals to begin with though, especially since even from the outset they have some reason to be suspicious of him. Though, I guess better they found out how dangerous he was while they were in the middle of nowhere?

It can be argued that Our Heroes also erred by placing Khan under woefully inadequate house arrest rather than placing him in the brig.

Kirk not raising shields appears to have been a violation of protocol; one he later owns up to.

In any event, it's somewhat hard to taken all of this entirely seriously because there's obvious dramatic license occurring: Khan has to take control of the ship in "Space Seed" or the rest of the episode is a disappointment. Similar for Kirk not raising shields in TWOK.

 

[WarpFactorZ]

That doesn't sound like Kirk at ALL.

Khan had just attempted to steal his ship and slowly, torturously kill him and his bridge crew in a decompression chamber. I'd be a bit beside myself too, if that were the case...

[Ceti Alpha V]... was definitely harsh, but like Chekov said in TWOK, there was life and a fair chance.

As noted by another poster, the comparison to Australia was made:

I don't think they said one way or the other. Just that it was savage, and compared it to Australia.

Australia is famous for having the most venemous spiders in the world, and other nasty creatures. To paraphrase Douglas Adams' "Last Chance to See": "What do you do if they bite you? Why, you die, of course!"

This was my earlier point about Ceti Alpha V. Yes, the ecosystem was "harsh", but perhaps Kirk knew about the Ceti Eels and whatever other nastiness existed there, and figured a group with zero technology and weapons would be lucky to last 3 months. Kirk felt Khan got the "reward" he deserved for his reprehensible actions.

 

[JonnyQuest037]

I don't think they said one way or the other. Just that it was savage, and compared it to Australia.

Yeah, IMO the ending of "Space Seed" doesn't make any sense if there's already intelligent life there. That'd just be Kirk passing his problem on to someone else without even giving them a heads up. Again, that sounds horribly out of character for him.

There's probably some blame to go around for giving Khan access to the ship's tech manuals to begin with though, especially since even from the outset they have some reason to be suspicious of him.

Yeah, that was a definite mistake. Kirk deserves blame in that area, especially since he didn't really seem to restrict Khan's access.

Khan had just attempted to steal his ship and slowly, torturously kill him and his bridge crew in a decompression chamber. I'd be a bit beside myself too, if that were the case...

Good thing that Captain Kirk is made of sterner stuff, then.

This was my earlier point about Ceti Alpha V. Yes, the ecosystem was "harsh", but perhaps Kirk knew about the Ceti Eels and whatever other nastiness existed there, and figured a group with zero technology and weapons would be lucky to last 3 months. Kirk felt Khan got the "reward" he deserved for his reprehensible actions.

I believe that some movie once said that Kirk doesn't believe in the No-Win Scenario. He knew that a man of Khan's cunning and intelligence would have a fighting chance on CA5, but that it would not be easy. But he wasn't intentionally sending Khan and his people off to die. Again, that'd be horribly out of character for Kirk.

 

[Timo]

When Kirk sends Khan to that planet, he is not de jure dishing out punishment for actions: Khan is guilty of nothing at all as far as we can tell, because Kirk has, fully legally, dropped all charges. Instead, Kirk is helping a civilian colonize a planet. This does not place subsequent obligations on Kirk, Starfleet or the Federation.

That is, colonies are not regularly checked on. Quite to the contrary, colonists generally insist on their privacy, even if Kirk often ends up claiming jurisdiction for declaring a state of emergency, forcing an evacuation or the like.

Now, government operations are regularly checked on, despite protests: "Man Trap" is all about such a scheduled check. But Khan does not work for the government. He now is the government, which grants him sovereignty and the freedom from noisome "checks" or "help" or whatever.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Boris Skrbic]

Kirk has, fully legally, dropped all charges

What would give Kirk such legal authority? All of his crew who suffered because of Khan’s actions would be expected to go along with it? I don’t see that unless they were satisfied with Khan’s effective (if concealed) imprisonment, including the notion that it would be a civilized experimental prison, not a matter of leaving them to their devices in case of lethal climate change. And what about the possibility of a ship passing by and the whole thing happening again, if in fact they were treated as a regular colony? That’s not justice.

 

[BillJ]

What would give Kirk such legal authority?

Starfleet.

 

[Timo]

Indeed, that IS justice - usually it leaves many parties dissatisfied, and they can then go fuck themselves.

One may wonder about the breadth of authority really vested in Kirk, but he is effectively a Justice of Peace (War?) in being able to marry folks, in addition to the traditional powers of a ship's commanding officer.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[DonIago]

Citation needed for the claim that Starfleet doesn't regularly check up on colonies.

"Regularly", of course, could mean once every couple of years, or less.

 

[Timo]

Hmm. Whenever Kirk visits a colony, it is for an emergency or contingency that was able to develop in the first place because nobody visited the colony previously. Say, Elias Sandoval's posse was somehow known to have sailed to their inevitable deaths, yet Kirk only paid a visit after three years, expecting to collect bodies. If this is what Starfleet does in perceived emergencies, the idea of regular check-ups is the one that needs extraordinary proof.

As far as I know, Starfleet has never checked up on a colony for checking's sake in any episode, movie or backstory. Certainly the main heroes have only ever showed up if the colony was in explicit distress (or then stumbled upon colonies they didn't realize even existed, again telling volumes about how Starfleet treats these things).

Government interactions with colonies tend to be of the "Back off or we'll fire" sort, pretty much the same as with regular member worlds... Indeed, the very point of having a colony seems to be getting rid of government supervision.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Boris Skrbic]

The problem is still with the notion that Khan’s ruthless attempted takeover was pretty much rewarded with a frontier colony rather than punished with a prison for all practical purposes. The crew should’ve felt like there is no getting out for him, which implies some monitoring tech and active checking (that could be how they got the film-era equipment updates, as pointed out in other threads here).

 

[Timo]

But there is no getting around the fact that Kirk pardoned Khan. It's not a "notion", it's what he did, for unfathomable reasons of his.

...Probably because he was a neo-Augmentist himself. It would take some doing to reverse his decision, but this might well happen if neo-Augmentists were in disfavor. Which in turn might prompt him to be shady about it somehow...

Really, the idea of Kirk as a neo-Nazi makes it all work as a neat package. His crew openly agrees with him on the issue, so they would be motivated to do whatever Kirk does in order to protect the righteous cause and their own asses against Starfleet backlash on Kirk's choice. OTOH, if Kirk is a neo-Nazi, then it seems Starfleet top brass is, too, as they like Kirk even if we never hear them admit to liking Khan.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Vger23]

Really, the idea of Kirk as a neo-Nazi makes it all work as a neat package. His crew openly agrees with him on the issue, so they would be motivated to do whatever Kirk does in order to protect the righteous cause and their own asses against Starfleet backlash on Kirk's choice. OTOH, if Kirk is a neo-Nazi, then it seems Starfleet top brass is, too, as they like Kirk even if we never hear them admit to liking Khan.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Timo]

The boot does seem to fit. From the 24th century viewpoint, Kirk is a "controversial" character at best. From our direct 2260s vantage point, he looks like a relic from the 1960s. He speaks well of the Augments, which apparently is the same as thinking today that Hitler had the right idea but was sadly underappreciated by his contemporaries and perhaps a tad too overenthusiastic about the execution. And his sympathy for the Khanist approach to life extends beyond "Space Seed": he's a great pundit for the healthy natural struggle for survival, in his speeches at least.

Even Spock agrees that Kirk would make for a good Nazi. OTOH, even Spock abhors Kirk's political views in "Space Seed"...

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Boris Skrbic]

I wouldn’t go that far, but the episode is troubling in the way Kirk says about an identified dictator that “We can be against him and admire him all at the same time.” That whole exchange with Scotty, Spock and McCoy wouldn’t have been written in quite that way today, not to mention the entire plot point of a Starfleet officer like Marla McGivers being so easily seduced.

I can see Kirk making an honest personal evaluation of cost vs benefit/danger to turning Khan and his followers over to the Federation prison system, especially after experiencing it up close in “Dagger of the Mind”. He was thinking of making it a prison colony of the past, but presumably not at the risk of endangering unknown contacts. The crew might’ve gone along with the coverup because they, too, didn’t feel like rewarding Khan with a relatively cushy prison and controversial reconditioning if the secret was discovered, and then perhaps it was as simple as balancing monitoring with discovery, a tightrope which failed to detect the Ceti Alpha VI explosion.

Let’s say that everyone in the know was convinced of the need for minimal to no monitoring because of where the system was located, because ships were known to give it a wide berth, and then the planetary catastrophe was such a freak incident they’d never think to look for it.

 

[fireproof78]

Even Spock agrees that Kirk would make for a good Nazi. OTOH, even Spock abhors Kirk's political views in "Space Seed"...

Which is funny given Spock's comments regarding Nazi Germany when Kirk is appalled at Gill for modeling colony on the Nazis.