Mudd's Women: Kirk’s Quarters - Window?

[Mytran]

Ah, I misapprehended your point. Sorry.

No worries, I was a little vague in my wording - I can certainly see what you meant though.
However, despite the external similarities I tend to view the Ent-A as a different beast, internally. Therefore, I ignored the fact that the door placement in ST4 was identical to that in 1, 2 & 3

 

[ZapBrannigan]

Inertial dampeners regularly keep the crew from turning into paste, so why not in the turbolifts?

If you watch the scene in "Battlefield," Lokai's turbo car and its instant replacement would both have to move cartoonishly fast. They would never be built for that, with inertial damping built in no less, because it would be an absurd waste of time and resources in the shipyard, and then it would just gum up the ship with all that extra, unneeded stuff.

TOS turbo cars have always taken plenty of time to get anywhere, and thus there's nothing to justify this particular extra equipment for them. For each individual turbo car to have its own inertial damping system is not only unnecessary in every other episode, it's also getting silly, like the gag on Batman where his utility belt would contain a highly specific solution for any problem, no matter how unlikely.

Also, in TNG if the car goes too fast, the rider is shaken and stirred. From the Memory Alpha entry for "Contagion":

Now aware of the imminent danger but unable to contact the bridge, La Forge runs frantically to the turbolift. It races wildly through the shafts, throwing La Forge about the lift car. At one point he is stuck to the ceiling, then he falls so violently that his VISOR is knocked off of his face. Upon arriving on the bridge, La Forge is literally thrown out of the turbolift and is assisted to his feet by Riker just in time to warn Picard to destroy the probe.

 

[Henoch]

A Wolf In The Fold: Kirk and Spock in turbolift freefall...was the lights the only indication that they were in freefall, or did they feel it, too?

KIRK: Bridge.
(But the lights indicate they are going down quickly, not up.)
SPOCK: Freefall!
KIRK: Out of control. Put it on manual. Bridge.

I think they acted like they felt it, at least Shatner did...

 

[DonIago]

Isn't that only proving that if there are intertial dampers then they can be disabled?

 

[CorporalCaptain]

For each individual turbo car to have its own inertial damping system is not only unnecessary in every other episode, it's also getting silly, like the gag on Batman where his utility belt would contain a highly specific solution for any problem, no matter how unlikely.

Not at all. Inertial dampeners aren't a new, random thing.

Assuming there's a network of inertial dampeners covering the decks of the starship to protect the crew, then it would not be outlandish for there to be part of that system both dedicated to and installed on the turbolifts.

If we accept the idea of gravity plates that the other series used, and retroactively established for Constitution-class starships by "In a Mirror, Darkly, Part II," then we pretty much know (or it would not be unreasonable to assume) that each turbolift car has its own mobile gravity plate(s). Why not inertial dampener(s), too?

 

[Timo]

The dampers are vital gear for turning the corners already: every map or scene of the ships we ever get, and every indirect indication of how the shafts run, would involve turns that would either turn the occupants to pulp, or then at least knock them off their feet. Yet get as much as a slight jolt, and it's an explicit malfunction and a dire emergency.

Indeed, I'd suspect the whole chicken and egg for the turbolift system is the inertial damping: without it, such a system would not be superior to stairs, and not worth the hassle, the internal volume expended, or even the energy cost.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[ZapBrannigan]

Indeed, I'd suspect the whole chicken and egg for the turbolift system is the inertial damping: without it, such a system would not be superior to stairs, and not worth the hassle, the internal volume expended, or even the energy cost.

That's a good re-imagining, but every time somebody rode the turbolift in an actual episode, it took considerable time to get to Point B, which suggests the car wasn't going super-fast.

 

[Timo]

It's not a matter of superfast, but of supersharp. The turns would bruise you even at a moderate pace, including the turns shown in DSC and never mind the 90 degree ones implied by every other Trek incarnation.

As for the time it takes from A to B... These are big ships. And there's no such thing as a straight shaft, except in ST5:TFF. Indeed, it's a miracle the shafts and the corridors can fit in the saucers simultaneously, even with all the tight turns.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Henoch]

Gravity Control:

• In WMNHGB, background voices say, "Gravity control switching to batteries." and "Gravity is down to point eight." which implies a single system for the whole ship. (i.e. No TNG retcon gravity "plating" in massive parallel subsystems through out the ship.)
• Special equipment such as "the gravity chamber" in TLOZ allows gravity to be neutralized inside the small controlled environmental chamber.
• Not too sure about the hangar; was there any signs on the walls/floors that indicate low or no gravity conditions? In JTB, the background voice says, "Clear hangar deck. Clear hangar deck. Depressurising. Recovering shuttlecraft. Hangar deck pressurizing." No reference to gravity at all, so, it must be normal gravity on the hangar deck. The shuttlecraft moves itself with a hover mode (my preference) or a tractor beam system moves the shuttle into perfect position on the turntable. Note that one shuttlecraft is always ready to go on the pad with the flight prep work done in advance. Just jump into it and go (per Matt Decker, and per COTK dialog with Lenore).
• In ST6:TUC, the Klingon ship lost all gravity with a single hit to its gravity control, and later, the whole ship is restored with bringing on the auxiliary gravity. Again, don't sound like "plating" in TOS rather a single gravity generator and a backup generator for the whole ship. Unless you think they are only focusing on the power supplies or controls like in the first bullet, but bringing on auxiliary "gravity" and not discussing power or control system terms makes it sound like its another gravity system instead.

Inertial Dampening System: dampens out other accelerations. The IDS could be "set" to maintain the constant one G gravity through out the ship, so, the Gravity Control could be a subsystem of the IDS or the other way around or one in the same system, but there's no proof of an IDS of any kind in TOS dialog. Impacts to the hull seem to be transmitted throughout and into the ship as witnessed by people getting knocked to the floor and general ship shaking and vibrations in combat. That duranium is sure strong yet mechanically dampens vibrations like lead.

Structural Integrity Field: reenforces the ship structure with force fields internal to the hull members or materials. No direct proof of the SIF any TOS dialog. Scotty gives us one vague reference in TDM, "I want a full structural and control damage check." Sounds like he is talking about two things, but Washburn uses the exact same terms, so maybe "structural and control damage" is only one system for controlling and monitoring the ship structure. Or, maybe duranium hulls are strong enough in conjunction with just Gravity Control. Sealing off hull breaches with force fields might be part of the structural integrity field, but again, no proof in TOS. Actually, the opposite in TDM, "Damage control party sealing off inner hull rupture." Why have a damage control party (party implies a group of crewmen) if the computer can automatically put up a force field to seal the hull?
(The Enterprise-B in TNG movie ST:GEN had force fields sealing hull breaches, "And we've also got a hull breach in engineering section. Emergency forcefields in place and holding." I guess the damage control party was arriving on Tuesday.)

 

[Timo]

Outside the TOS context, but relevant to TOS in-universe, ENT already had deck gravity that could fail in specific corners of specific rooms.

And of course the shuttles themselves stand proof that creating very localized gravity (and negating inertia locally) is doable, with resources contained in said confining location no less. Making every room aboard the ship a shuttle in all but name would probably be expensive, but sharing of resources would in turn make it cheap.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Mytran]

Gravity plating in TOS (and even ENT terms) could be more to do with evening out the spread of gravitons spewed forth by the main gravity generator on a ship. Without them there would be both pockets of high gravity and zero gravity in various locations, but if the main gravity generator goes down, that's it!

 

[Warped9]

Odd. I never noticed what might be taken as a window in Kirk's quarters before although in concept sketches for the it looked like a window was planned. A window is unmistakeably noticeable in Pike's quarters in "The Cage." And in Pike's cabin the angle of the wall seems to suggest his cabin might be located on deck B or C below the bridge, allowing Pike quick access to the Bridge. Conversely, though, it also means the CO's quarters could be a lot more vulnerable to ship damge then if their cabin were located more in the heart of the ship such as a more central area on Deck 5.

The window seen in the concept sketch could suggest Kirk's cabin was on the outer edge of the saucer, but this would make it just as vulnerable as Pike having his cabin just below the Bridge.

In TOS' time the technology definitely exists to make a viewscreen display look like a window. The main viewscreen on the Bridge is a prime example. So Kirk's quarters could have something that looks like a window yet is actually a viewscreen that can give the occupant a simulated view of the outside (or any view for that matter). In this way the CO could have a "window" while still having their personal cabin/office in a more secure part of the ship.

 

[JonnyQuest037]

Most sets don't accurately fit into the building exteriors shown (I first noticed this in All In the Family a zillion years ago) after all.

Very true. The interior of Monk's on Seinfeld bears no relation to the shots of Tom's Restaurant used for the exterior, and the building they used for establishing shots on Friends has absolutely no space for Monica and Rachel's balcony. Once you notice these things, you'll never unnotice them.

Comic book creator John Byrne has long said that the interiors of the Stephens house on Bewitched fit pretty well into the house they used for the exterior shots. So much so that he used the set as the basis of the house that Jean Grey's family lived in in the Uncanny X-Men series. And the sets of Cheers also jibe pretty well with what we see in the exterior shots (although the real-life bar at that location has a very different layout, I understand).

HGTV's A Very Brady Renovation was a fascinating watch, as they were trying to make replicas of the TV sets fit into the interior of the real-life house used for the exterior shots. They had to fudge it a bit in a few places (mainly by putting their replica of Greg's attic room into a basement area, complete with a fake window), but overall they got extremely close to what we saw on TV every week.

The set designers didn't think the entry should be right behind the captain's back, because that's a very irritating arrangement for the boss. And I can tell you first hand, it is troublesome to work in an office whose entrance is right behind your back.

Yes. At one of my old jobs the bosses moved my workspace while I was out for a few days (one of the many reasons I don't miss that job). They had my back to the door. When I came back, I immediately shifted the position of my drawing board so that I could see the door. Otherwise, I knew that I'd be startled and jumping out of my chair whenever someone walked into the room.

The bridge is not a practical working environment by any imaginable standard...

The U.S Navy disagreed. From Memory Alpha (Starting in the "Legacy" section):

Jefferies' taking a cue from the Navy's operating procedures had a real life reciprocated effect as the Navy took a cue from his bridge design, as he related in 1987, "We had some talks with the U.S. Navy during the third year of STAR TREK and they wanted to know the theory behind the bridge – the slopes and various angles... We explained it to them and I gave them a full-sized vertical section. There is a letter in the file stating that the Navy did use that as a basis for one of their major communications centers." (Cinefantastique, Vol 17 #2, p. 29) On a later occasion he has added, "Gene called me one day and said there were some navy officers that wanted information on the bridge and why we did it the way we did. So they came in – a commander and a lieutenant – and we treated them to lunch, and I showed them the drawing and pulled the blueprints for them, and they got to look at he bridge itself. We got a nice letter the following week thanking us, and about a year later another thank-you letter saying that the information had led to the design of a new master communications center at NAS San Diego. And they would like to invite me down to see it, but unfortunately it was classified. I didn't bother to tell them that I still had an ultra top secret clearance from work I had done when I was in Washington before coming out here!". (Star Trek: The Magazine Volume 1, Issue 11, p. 21)

 

[Mytran]

Odd. I never noticed what might be taken as a window in Kirk's quarters before although in concept sketches for the it looked like a window was planned. A window is unmistakeably noticeable in Pike's quarters in "The Cage." And in Pike's cabin the angle of the wall seems to suggest his cabin might be located on deck B or C below the bridge, allowing Pike quick access to the Bridge. Conversely, though, it also means the CO's quarters could be a lot more vulnerable to ship damge then if their cabin were located more in the heart of the ship such as a more central area on Deck 5.

The window seen in the concept sketch could suggest Kirk's cabin was on the outer edge of the saucer, but this would make it just as vulnerable as Pike having his cabin just below the Bridge.

In TOS' time the technology definitely exists to make a viewscreen display look like a window. The main viewscreen on the Bridge is a prime example. So Kirk's quarters could have something that looks like a window yet is actually a viewscreen that can give the occupant a simulated view of the outside (or any view for that matter). In this way the CO could have a "window" while still having their personal cabin/office in a more secure part of the ship.

Was it a window though?

In the remastered episodes this was strongly implied but in the original, it was just a green panel that later pulsed in time with the perspex probe thingy that Dr Boyce switched on when he came in to bartend

Actually, I'd much prefer to think that Pike has a window simulator in his cabin rather than a physical window - otherwise it means the outer walls of his Enterprise are paper thin!

 

[Warped9]

Was it a window though?

In the remastered episodes this was strongly implied but in the original, it was just a green panel that later pulsed in time with the perspex probe thingy that Dr Boyce switched on when he came in to bartend

Actually, I'd much prefer to think that Pike has a window simulator in his cabin rather than a physical window - otherwise it means the outer walls of his Enterprise are paper thin!

Of course we don’t know what kind of materials the ship is constructed of. Three hundred years of advancements in engineering and metallurgy could allow for something we cannot even envision today.

 

[Qonundrum]

Of course we don’t know what kind of materials the ship is constructed of. Three hundred years of advancements in engineering and metallurgy could allow for something we cannot even envision today.

No argument here. In the 1700s, not many thought of the inventions and enhancements that are commonplace today. Even sci-fi as we know it wouldn't evolve for a couple centuries, give or take...

But in 1960s Desilu, even in keeping set costs down,they used plywood, wax paper, paper bag material painted gray, gel-coated lights, plastic, maybe a transistor to rig a timing mechanism for the Bridge under-viewer light sequence, whirlygig things for Spock's groovy set that they bought from Spencer Gifts, etc... and at the unpredecented cost of "The Cage" it's not too big a surprise that they would attempt a second pilot when the other option would be to find a gigantic toilet bowl.

 

[ZapBrannigan]

Comic book creator John Byrne has long said that the interiors of the Stephens house on Bewitched fit pretty well into the house they used for the exterior shots. So much so that he used the set as the basis of the house that Jean Grey's family lived in in the Uncanny X-Men series.

The Bewitched house is my favorite non-sci fi set. Adam R. Jones created a full set of working, "buildable" architectural drawings for it. He had to make only a few little compromises to reconcile the interior sets with the exterior, which was just a facade, and which he visited and measured meticulously:

https://www.bewitchedhouse.com/ranch/index.html

I'm having trouble finding any Uncanny X-Men images relevant to the house, and I'd love to see a sample if it's online anywhere.

 

[JonnyQuest037]

I'm having trouble finding any Uncanny X-Men images relevant to the house, and I'd love to see a sample if it's online anywhere.

I briefly tried looking when I made my original post, but I quickly decided that I didn't want to spend a half hour or more trying to find the right image. Byrne drew the Grey/Bewitched house in UXM #136 (when Jean visits her old house during the Dark Phoenix Saga) and also in Fantastic Four #286 (the issue where Jean Grey comes back from the dead).

 

[Mytran]

Of course we don’t know what kind of materials the ship is constructed of. Three hundred years of advancements in engineering and metallurgy could allow for something we cannot even envision today.

It does stand in stark contrast to the other times we see explicit portholes on the ship though (COK and MOG)