Poll Is Rey a Mary Sue?

[HugeLobes]

I just think she is a Mary Sue, a blank slate character that is better than every other character and reminds the other characters that she is better. Luke was not that. Rey is

Wary about stepping into another Mary Sue debate, but I think this applies to sequel trilogy characters in general, especially in TFA. Finn and Poe also feel a little too competent, and even Kylo doesn't seem to have earned his position in the First Order as legitimately as Vader earned his in the Empire.

Obviously Luke and chums had plot armour to ensure they weren't slain by the first set of stormtroopers they ran into, but the characters in the sequels seem to skew a little more towards Marvel superhero levels of luck and skill. TFA always felt a little like what would happen if someone made a Ready Player One style simulation game for Star Wars and everyone got to pick a main character to have fun with. They all fit that 'blank slate character' idea as much as Rey, especially Finn.

I'm not saying this as a criticism. Those kind of characters suit the world and tone of TFA better than the kind of characters we got in the OT and PT would have. But it is unfair to single Rey out. She's not a Mary Sue. She's just a reflection of a JJ Abrams type of world.

 

[Spot261]

really, no.. I'm not hate filled..
I just think she is a Mary Sue, a blank slate character that is better than every other character and reminds the other characters that she is better. Luke was not that. Rey is

But the point is you are very, very determined to make your point that Rey is a "Mary Sue", that the term is meaningful and serves as a valid criticism. You seem to see this as a term which carries weight, which is something whose definition and application are serious questions which should be debated at length as having some impact with regard to the worth of the movie or the character and some inferred political agenda.

It isn't and it was never meant to be, it was just a bit of banter between people who enjoyed Trek fan fiction. That it has over the past few years seen a resurgence on Youtube and similar, having been co opted as something a long way from its' true origins seems not to really register and it is being used in some depressingly negative ways.

Turn this on its' head, imagine we were to have an in joke on this site, a bit of internal banter which we all understood and made us smile. Then imagine that 40 odd years later we were to find that said in joke had taken prominence on the global stage as something really rather ugly and politically loaded.

That's what has happened here. Mary Sue was only ever a bit of fun. A giggle.

That's it.

 

[Locutus of Bored]

really, no.. I'm not hate filled..
I just think she is a Mary Sue, a blank slate character that is better than every other character and reminds the other characters that she is better. Luke was not that. Rey is

I know, watch how she even as a child she fends off Vader, Kylo Ren, Boba Fett, Phasma, and a bunch of Stormtroopers singlehandedly. Disgusting.

To view this content we will need your consent to set third party cookies.
For more detailed information, see our cookies page.

Accept third party cookies

By the way, you see how that little girl is filled with joy at dressing up as and meeting her hero Rey? You probably felt that way as a kid when you watched the original trilogy characters and imagined yourself in their roles. So, maybe next time when you're being a relentlessly dour stick-in-the-mud whining about agendas and derailing multiple threads because they cast a female (or minority) hero, try and keep in mind how you felt when you were younger and the importance of having heroes onscreen that looked like you or had some trait that made them otherwise relatable to you, and try and remember that while Star Wars appeals to all ages, inspiring children like that is more important than appeasing your cynicism.

 

[DarthTimon]

I've never seen Rey as a Mary Sue - she still has a lot to learn, much like Luke did when he was at her stage of Jedi training.

 

[Spot261]

I know, watch how she even as a child she fends off Vader, Kylo Ren, Boba Fett, Phasma, and a bunch of Stormtroopers singlehandedly. Disgusting.

To view this content we will need your consent to set third party cookies.
For more detailed information, see our cookies page.

Accept third party cookies

By the way, you see how that little girl is filled with joy at dressing up as and meeting her hero Rey? You probably felt that way as a kid when you watched the original trilogy characters and imagined yourself in their roles. So, maybe next time when you're being a relentlessly dour stick-in-the-mud whining about agendas and derailing multiple threads because they cast a female (or minority) hero, try and keep in mind how you felt when you were younger and the importance of having heroes onscreen that looked like you or had some trait that made them otherwise relatable to you, and try and remember that while Star Wars appeals to all ages, inspiring children like that is more important than appeasing your cynicism.

this

 

[Flying Spaghetti Monster]

I'm sure captain marvel has little ones who look up to her.. still a mary sue

To view this content we will need your consent to set third party cookies.
For more detailed information, see our cookies page.

Accept third party cookies

 

[Tuskin38]

still a mary sue

No she isn't.
I'm almost certain you're just trolling now, so I'm leaving this thread for good. Have fun talking to yourself.

 

[BillJ]

I'm sure captain marvel has little ones who look up to her.. still a mary sue

Okay. So you've decided that Rey is a "Mary Sue", single-handedly, for fandom. Now, what are you going to do with it? What is it doing to change your life and the lives of those around you?

Or... just watch the movies, or don't if Rey offends your sensibilities. But, god damn, quit complaining about it. The only thing you've proven here is just how small a human being you are.

 

[fireproof78]

Can we keep it civil and not personal.

 

[somebuddyX]

I think Rey is just a character who is very competent at what she can do having learned a bunch of survival skills whilst growing up alone on a shithole planet. In TFA there's nothing I saw that Luke presumably could not have done in even the first Star Wars film, it's just the story was only introducing the universe there so didn't go into huge depths. And she's not even competent at every single thing. She flies the Millenium Falcon and immediately crashes it into the ground almost killing a bunch of people. She knows how to use a lightsaber by turning one on and flailing about chopping wood at some punk who's only fought against other punks. She uses telepathy and telekinesis by telling some idiot to unlock her restraints and walk away, and grabs an object already in motion.

 

[fireproof78]

Okay. So you've decided that Rey is a "Mary Sue", single-handedly, for fandom. Now, what are you going to do with it? What is it doing to change your life and the lives of those around you?

Or... just watch the movies, or don't if Rey offends your sensibilities. But, god damn, quit complaining about it. The only thing you've proven here is just how small a human being you are.

Honestly, if watching Star Wars is miserable I would suggest finding a more enjoyable way to spend time.

I don't get the need to watch things that upset myself. At least in fiction.

 

[Skipper]

Honestly, if watching Star Wars is miserable I would suggest finding a more enjoyable way to spend time.

I don't get the need to watch things that upset myself. At least in fiction.

This. Life is too short.

And we are still talking about a movie with space wizards. If it makes your life so miserable, well perhaps it's time you ask yourself some serious questions.

Even if you are just trolling. Because it's incredible the time and energy you are spending on it.

 

[Skipper]

And I would like to quote myself.

Like I already said, you can be offended by a movie only if you are a black person in the 1915 and you have just watched Birth of a Nation.

 

[The Wormhole]

I'm sure captain marvel has little ones who look up to her.. still a mary sue

So, basically according to you female lead = Mary Sue. Well, my days of taking you seriously have certainly reached a middle.

Who am I kidding, I don't even remember a time when I took you seriously.

 

[fireproof78]

Wary about stepping into another Mary Sue debate, but I think this applies to sequel trilogy characters in general, especially in TFA. Finn and Poe also feel a little too competent, and even Kylo doesn't seem to have earned his position in the First Order as legitimately as Vader earned his in the Empire.

I'm not 100% sure I agree with this. Vader got his position within the Empire through nepotism and killing pretty much anyone who stood in his way. Unless, that's what you mean by "earned" is wholesale slaughter. Which, Kylo did by crushing the house he and Luke were in through the Force, and killing Luke's other students.

Here's my observation, which may be a distinction without a difference. I don't think Rey, Finn or Poe are "too competent." I think they are very much untapped potential that doesn't really show up until the pressure is on. And, this is probably an Abrams' staple since I could see similar in his Kirk character, who is demonstrated to be talented and capable, but not using it until challenged.

I don't know if that makes sense or if that is that big of a difference. I just think these characters are put in to situations where their talents have an opportunity to shine.

 

[HugeLobes]

Here's my observation, which may be a distinction without a difference. I don't think Rey, Finn or Poe are "too competent." I think they are very much untapped potential that doesn't really show up until the pressure is on. And, this is probably an Abrams' staple since I could see similar in his Kirk character, who is demonstrated to be talented and capable, but not using it until challenged.

The comparison with Captain Kirk is one I was going to make myself. He's a really solid character. All the 2009 characters are pretty solid, but I wouldn't exactly say they're realistic. At least, their TOS counterparts feel a little more like normal people while the 2009 versions feel designed more for a fast-paced space action movie. The name 'Plinkett' has probably gotten old here, but I think he's right about how the 2009 characters were formed: JJ took character traits from the originals and 'electrified' them.

Not saying one approach is better than the other - they both work in their own respective iterations. I liked Star Trek 2009 more than most of the TOS movies. A big reason why is that I've always felt only a few of the TOS movies really have a handle on the TOS characters.

JJ seemed to follow the Trek formula with TFA. The main characters feel a little, well ... 'bigger' than main characters did in the OT or even the PT. There are plenty of in-universe explanations for why that might be, but I think the most obvious reason is also the right one; it makes sense for those characters to be that way because they fit with the refreshed SWs world JJ was building.

Do I think Rey learns the Force a little faster than Luke or Anakin? Yes, but I don't care because it makes more sense in this story and fits JJ's version of the Star Wars universe, and I certainly don't think it makes her a Mary Sue. In the same way I don't really think it makes sense for the First Order to be so incredibly well-equipped, but it works for the movie.

Do I think it makes sense for 2009 Kirk to take the captain's chair at the end of the movie? No, but I'm glad it happened because this is the point JJ needed to reach by the end of part one.

I don't know if that makes sense or if that is that big of a difference. I just think these characters are put in to situations where their talents have an opportunity to shine.

I think there's an in-universe explanation for these characters and then another concerned more with the writing process and what the director wanted from each film. I agree with you as far as in-universe goes, but then I've always been happy to see each Star Wars trilogy as its own seperate thing rather than part of the exact same universe.

 

[Kor]

Just looking at the OT and ignoring all extraneous materials, prequels, etc., it looks like Vader gained much more authority between ANH and ESB.

Kor

 

[HugeLobes]

Just looking at the OT and ignoring all extraneous materials, prequels, etc., it looks like Vader gained much more authority between ANH and ESB.

Kor

I'm not 100% sure I agree with this. Vader got his position within the Empire through nepotism and killing pretty much anyone who stood in his way. Unless, that's what you mean by "earned" is wholesale slaughter. Which, Kylo did by crushing the house he and Luke were in through the Force, and killing Luke's other students.

I think the difference between Kylo and Vader is that Kylo is useful because he's a Sith Lord, whereas Vader is useful because of his various leadership skills. He just happens to be a Sith Lord. Strip Vader of his Force powers and he'd probably have been just as useful to the Empire.

 

[fireproof78]

In the same way I don't really think it makes sense for the First Order to be so incredibly well-equipped, but it works for the movie.

I agree with most of your points, but I want to call out one that stood out and I had heard on a commentary with Sam Witwer. Sam makes it a point to note Poe's reaction to the First Order's equipment as being a surprise to him as well. I think it makes sense if one accepts that the Republic had basically turned a blind eye to the First Order growing in the unknown regions.

Just looking at the OT and ignoring all extraneous materials, prequels, etc., it looks like Vader gained much more authority between ANH and ESB.

Kor

Exactly. In ANH he is using blunt force, a bruiser, but he hardly commands respect among the Imperial leadership. By ESB they are far more willing to kowtow.

I think the difference between Kylo and Vader is that Kylo is useful because he's a Sith Lord, whereas Vader is useful because of his various leadership skills. He just happens to be a Sith Lord. Strip Vader of his Force powers and he'd probably have been just as useful to the Empire.

His position still doesn't feel "earned" from ANH to ESB. He devotes entire Imperial resources in the pursuit of a one Rebel ship. I have a hard time feeling like he would be a good leader if it were not for his basically executing those who fail him.

Maybe he be a good Roman leader...hmmm

 

[HugeLobes]

His position still doesn't feel "earned" from ANH to ESB. He devotes entire Imperial resources in the pursuit of a one Rebel ship. I have a hard time feeling like he would be a good leader if it were not for his basically executing those who fail him.

Well, the Falcon was a pretty high value Rebel target. I guess mostly I'm talking about the way he operates. He just seems to be a much firmer part of the command structure. Without Force powers, he might just be another Tarkin.

I agree with most of your points, but I want to call out one that stood out and I had heard on a commentary with Sam Witwer. Sam makes it a point to note Poe's reaction to the First Order's equipment as being a surprise to him as well. I think it makes sense if one accepts that the Republic had basically turned a blind eye to the First Order growing in the unknown regions.

I think that's another quick in-universe explanation. The fact it needed to be pointed out in a commentary kinda speaks for itself.