Poll Is Rey a Mary Sue?

[Spot261]

You are both completely wrong. Rey is an insert into an existing universe, a character who does no wrong and is loved by all these established characters after a day or two interaction with them.

If she was her own movie? Fine. Go for it. Honestly, do you even know the basics of Mary Sue? Wesley Crusher was the same shit, except he doesn't have white knights. Imagine a guy turning up in Annhilation or Ghostbusters 2016 and was just perfect at everything and everyone loved him. That's Rey.

I always see this "what about (x)" and pointing to an original movie. You're allowed power fantasy movies, no one is stopping you.



She wasn't able to "just fly" the Falcon, haha. It was her first time and she performed maneuvers never before seen and took out several dozen TIE Fighters. If she was around in ANH, there never would have been any issues because she could have just lined everything up perfectly.

Her unmatched technical ability, unmatched flying ability are all on top of her amazing personality that has Han and Leia sucking her off and treating her like a daughter (after a day of knowing her). ALL OF THIS ON TOP OF HER AMAZING FORCE ABILITIES AFTER NOT EVEN KNOWING IT EXISTED A WEEK BEFORE! Her character is ridiculous and the cherry on top of a bad few movies.

Amazing.

How do you feel about the 9 year old Anakin winning pod races, building self aware machines and destroying battleships in a fighter he has never been in before?

As for understanding the "basics of Mary Sue", some of us were around to remember the origins of the term and how it came into the public consciousness. Hell, some of us even helped shape that process having been the very same people who read the original story and made the original observations.

Unlike Youtube.

Or you.

 

[Smellmet]

And round and round we go.

 

[fireproof78]

Amazing.

How do you feel about the 9 year old Anakin winning pod races, building self aware machines and destroying battleships in a fighter he has never been in before?

As for understanding the "basics of Mary Sue", some of us were around to remember the origins of the term and how it came into the public consciousness. Hell, some of us even helped shape that process having been the very same people who read the original story and made the original observations.

Unlike Youtube.

Or you.

Not to speak for the poster but I'll jump in here. He doesn't like TMP or Anakin in that film, so that point has been largely ignored as evidence for Rey's abilities.

But, let's not make this personal either. I know this discussion raises the ire of many but we can still be polite here.

 

[Spot261]

Not to speak for the poster but I'll jump in here. He doesn't like TMP or Anakin in that film, so that point has been largely ignored as evidence for Rey's abilities.

But, let's not make this personal either. I know this discussion raises the ire of many but we can still be polite here.

I think my point about the origins of the phrase are valid.

The poster is 18 years old. That's not meant as a disparaging observation but rather his knowledge of the phrase is by definition second hand at the very least (more likely something like tenth) and many of the people posting here were indeed present in the fandom before Youtube, before BBS forums, before USENET and remember the actual genesis of "Mary Sue". Participated in it in fact.

Many of us were active participants in the (then rather small) subculture which actually created it as a trope and therefore can not only claim to understand the basics but to literally be primary sources. We remember when it was nothing more than an in joke, not the parody it has become, because we were the ones telling the joke.

To claim after the fact that those people, in applying caution to the current hyperbolic and inappropriate misuse of the term are displaying ignorance is almost the pinnacle of irony.

 

[fireproof78]

I think my point about the origins of the phrase are valid.

The poster is 18 years old. That's not meant as a disparaging observation but rather his knowledge of the phrase is by definition second hand at the very least (more likely something like tenth) and many of the people posting here were indeed present in the fandom before Youtube, before BBS forums, before USENET and remember the actual genesis of "Mary Sue". Participated in it in fact.

Many of us were active participants in the (then rather small) subculture which actually created it as a trope and therefore can not only claim to understand the basics but to literally be primary sources. We remember when it was nothing more than an in joke, not the parody it has become, because we were the ones telling the joke.

To claim after the fact that those people, in applying caution to the current hyperbolic and inappropriate misuse of the term are displaying ignorance is almost the pinnacle of irony.

Your point regarding the origin of the term and your experience are completely valid. More so in that you were there.

More my remark was a cautionary of making this too personal in the argumentation. Your points on the origin of the phrase are completely welcome here, and I had invited a discussion of the definition here to support discussion. So, I welcome it!

 

[Campe]

I think my point about the origins of the phrase are valid.

The poster is 18 years old. That's not meant as a disparaging observation but rather his knowledge of the phrase is by definition second hand at the very least (more likely something like tenth) and many of the people posting here were indeed present in the fandom before Youtube, before BBS forums, before USENET and remember the actual genesis of "Mary Sue". Participated in it in fact.

Many of us were active participants in the (then rather small) subculture which actually created it as a trope and therefore can not only claim to understand the basics but to literally be primary sources. We remember when it was nothing more than an in joke, not the parody it has become, because we were the ones telling the joke.

To claim after the fact that those people, in applying caution to the current hyperbolic and inappropriate misuse of the term are displaying ignorance is almost the pinnacle of irony.

While I agree wholeheartedly with your assertion, Spot. I will make one observation. I don't believe the poster is 18. I believe he joined TrekBBS 18 years ago.

 

[Spot261]

While I agree wholeheartedly with your assertion, Spot. I will make one observation. I don't believe the poster is 18. I believe he joined TrekBBS 18 years ago.

Er, yeah, ummmm......

Doubtless he was a neonate at the time.

 

[Set Harth]

Or maybe he's just ignoring the prequels which bump the total count to... let's see... four.

ha ha no.

He ignored Aunt Beru.

He ignored Shmi Skywalker. ( Kind of an important one. )

He ignored Asajj Ventress and Ahsoka Tano.

He ignored all the female Jedi in the prequels.

He ignored Jira.

He ignored Jamillia and Apailana.

He ignored Breha Organa and Jobal Naberrie.

He ignored Sabe and the other handmaidens.

And last but definitely not least, he ignored Padme. FREAKING PADME.

The guy is being a complete tool.

But I guess that's what happens when someone is so desperate to defend Rey at all costs that reality itself gets thrown under the bus for being in the way.

 

[Grendelsbayne]

ha ha no.

He ignored Aunt Beru.

He ignored Shmi Skywalker. ( Kind of an important one. )

He ignored Asajj Ventress and Ahsoka Tano.

He ignored all the female Jedi in the prequels.

He ignored Jira.

He ignored Jamillia and Apailana.

He ignored Breha Organa and Jobal Naberrie.

He ignored Sabe and the other handmaidens.

And last but definitely not least, he ignored Padme. FREAKING PADME.

The guy is being a complete tool.

But I guess that's what happens when someone is so desperate to defend Rey at all costs that reality itself gets thrown under the bus for being in the way.

As a casual fan, that list is at least 30-40% total unknowns to me. Literally never heard of them. And almost all the names I do recognize clearly are from the prequels, so if this person was ignoring them that would seem to be the majority of the list. Also, one of those names I recognize exclusively from these boards because that character literally hasn't appeared in live action at all.

 

[Spot261]

ha ha no.

He ignored Aunt Beru.

He ignored Shmi Skywalker. ( Kind of an important one. )

He ignored Asajj Ventress and Ahsoka Tano.

He ignored all the female Jedi in the prequels.

He ignored Jira.

He ignored Jamillia and Apailana.

He ignored Breha Organa and Jobal Naberrie.

He ignored Sabe and the other handmaidens.

And last but definitely not least, he ignored Padme. FREAKING PADME.

The guy is being a complete tool.

But I guess that's what happens when someone is so desperate to defend Rey at all costs that reality itself gets thrown under the bus for being in the way.

Of which how many appear in the films and have more than a few lines?

How many are actually developed as characters beyond simply filling a space in the plot where a female is needed?

How many would contribute to a movie passing the Bechdel test?

 

[Set Harth]

As a casual fan, that list is at least 30-40% total unknowns to me. Literally never heard of them.

That's fine. But Peter David didn't even see them. They were invisible to him.

Of which how many appear in the films and have more than a few lines?

How many are actually developed as characters beyond simply filling a space in the plot where a female is needed?

How many would contribute to a movie passing the Bechdel test?

It just so happens that characters were summarily ignored who passed every test required by all of your moved goalposts.

 

[Spot261]

That's fine. But Peter David didn't even see them. They were invisible to him.



It just so happens that characters were summarily ignored who passed every test required by all of your moved goalposts.

First goalposts I've set, can't move something that wasn't there.

When you start reaching for background characters, characters with one line and characters who exist only because there needs to be a female in order to give birth to the hero then you're really demonstrating the weakness of your own case.

Dex (the guy who runs the diner where Obi Wan has breakfast) has more screen presence in the prequels than Shmi, whose importance consisted essentially of being a token mother for Anakin and then dying.

 

[JD]

I have to admit, I'm impressed we've managed to get 28 pages and 550+ out of a conversation that pretty much boils down to this:

 

[The Wormhole]

I have to admit, I'm impressed we've managed to get 28 pages and 550+ out of a conversation that pretty much boils down to this:

The "Is Starfleet a military?" threads can go on for double or even triple that length of basically the exact same content.

 

[BillJ]

I have to admit, I'm impressed we've managed to get 28 pages and 550+ out of a conversation that pretty much boils down to this:

It really doesn't come down to this, as whether or not Rey is a Mary Sue is something quantifiable. People may not like the character (fair enough), but the only definition of Mary Sue she matches are made up ones that boil down to "she doesn't have a penis!!!"

 

[USS Firefly]

It really doesn't come down to this, as whether or not Rey is a Mary Sue is something quantifiable. People may not like the character (fair enough), but the only definition of Mary Sue she matches are made up ones that boil down to "she doesn't have a penis!!!"

And she doesn't lose her hand like Anakin and Luke

 

[BillJ]

And she doesn't lose her hand like Anakin and Luke

Dammit! I guess she is a Mary Sue after all!!

 

[Grendelsbayne]

That's fine. But Peter David didn't even see them. They were invisible to him.

I think everyone can clearly see his point was never that Star Wars had 'exactly two' female characters, but rather that Star Wars had a ridiculously small number of significant female characters.

Based on your list, plus Leia and Mon Mothma who he already mentioned, I get 3 female characters in the first trilogy - only 1 one of which was even remotely significant.

For the prequels I get 4, but again only 1 in a significant role, plus some unspecified number of pure background characters who are so insignificant that even you couldn't be bothered to write out their names, if they even have names. And that's assuming that Beha Organa was in the prequels, which I don't actually know I'm just assuming that because I'm guessing she's probably Bail Organa's wife.

Which leaves six that are either so insignificant that a casual fan like me has absolutely no clue which movie they were apparently in or else they're from other material (cartoons or books) which is obviously completely irrelevant to the conversation (at least one of them is, I can tell that based on recent bbs conversations about whether or not Brie Larson should be the first person to play that character in live action).

All of which comes down to, in the end, exactly two truly significant female characters across the first six films, with a handful of bit players and maybe a dozen or two scattered in the background.

So, worst case scenario he was mildly hyperbolic and your list is still proving his point.

 

[Set Harth]

First goalposts I've set, can't move something that wasn't there.

They were moved from where Peter David put them. Don't forget - I was responding to his false claim about the Star Wars movies. It wasn't about your criteria for what a woman needs to do in order to matter, which would seem to be a separate issue.

there needs to be a female in order to give birth to the hero

Yep, that's how it works! I feel like we've made some kind of breakthrough here.

Now if only we could get men to stop acting like giving birth makes women non-entities.

Dex (the guy who runs the diner where Obi Wan has breakfast) has more screen presence in the prequels than Shmi

That doesn't appear to be objectively true in any conceivable way.

Dammit! I guess she is a Mary Sue after all!

Maybe we need a new term, something that means simply "never loses a lightsaber fight".

 

[BillJ]

Maybe we need a new term, something that means simply "never loses a lightsaber fight".

Technically, Luke never lost one either. He walked away from each one he was part of.