Alex Kurtzman on the Fine Line Between Adding to, and Staying True to, Star Trek's Canon

[DaveyNY]

Which doesn’t make much sense in the context of future Trek series. The fact that Michelle Yeoh will be starring in a Section 31 series soon, it stands to reason that the organization is still in existence even after Control was destroyed. That would mean that the mission that Kirk and Spock were given makes no sense. Why, as you say, have Starfleet clearly violate a treaty and Kirk risk his career to steal a cloaking device when Section 31 operatives could have done it without implicating the Federation? The reason: because the concept of Section 31 didn’t exist when TOS was being made. This kind of thing is why retcons almost never work in the larger scheme of overall continuity.

Have you forgotten the whole 'Kirk is Crazy' subterfuge that was going on during that episode?
(we don't really know if Section-31 was involved either way)

Kinda like "Mission Impossible" where the Fed's can claim that it was a rogue captain if the Enterprise should fail.
Of course, since the mission succeeded, as far as the Romulans know, it was still Kirk being a 'Mad King' incident.
I'm sure the Romulans sent a representative to speak to the Federation Council to demand Kirk's head.
(just like the Klingon's did in The Voyage Home)

 

[Dukhat]

Have you forgotten the whole 'Kirk is Crazy' subterfuge that was going on during that episode?
(we don't really know if Section-31 was involved either way)

Kinda like "Mission Impossible" where the Fed's can claim that it was a rogue captain if the Enterprise should fail.
Of course, since the mission succeeded, as far as the Romulans know, it was still Kirk being a 'Mad King' incident.
I'm sure the Romulans sent a representative to speak to the Federation Council to demand Kirk's head.
(just like the Klingon's did in The Voyage Home)

How Kirk did it makes no difference. The point is that Kirk didn’t have to do it at all if there was a secret organization with their own cloaked ships that could have snuck aboard that Romulan D7 and stole the cloaking device.

 

[DaveyNY]

How Kirk did it makes no difference. The point is that Kirk didn’t have to do it at all if there was a secret organization with their own cloaked ships that could have snuck aboard that Romulan D7 and stole the cloaking device.

They didn't have cloaked ships, that was the point of the entire episode.
From what we have seen, Section-31 had ships that used a completely different kind of camouflage.

Now it quite possible that by the time of "The Enterprise Incident", Section-31 had already acquired one, but again, that would not be general knowledge in Star Fleet.


I'll say again, I find it much more enjoyable to find a way to fit the pieces together we have been given, rather than spend my time ripping things apart.
It's supposed to be FUN, not a reason to be argumentative over fictional entertainment.

 

[Nenya]

The world is messed up. I'm tired of pretending it isn't. Ignoring problems won't solve them. And I'm tired of pretending things won't be messed up in the future. It's a lie. It might get better, but that's all. There will always be setbacks and there will always be regression to go with the progression.

I liked the idea that humanity would be better in the future. Yes, there are still many examples of humans acting in a "20th-21st" century way with conspiracies and dirty deeds and such but those were kinda treated as an aberration. But now there is a whole organization of people who act just like modern day humans only with future technology.

 

[Dukhat]

They didn't have cloaked ships, that was the point of the entire episode.
From what we have seen, Section-31 had ships that used a completely different kind of camouflage.

Did their camouflage make their ships invisible?

 

[DaveyNY]

Did their camouflage make their ships invisible?

See my added on comment above.

And actually no it didn't.
It just made them harder to visually see.
If somebody had specifically pointed the ships sensors in their direction they would most likely have been discovered.
Section-31 mainly uses misinformation and subterfuge to remain concealed.

 

[Dukhat]

See my added on comment above.

That’s not answering my question. If the Section 31 ships could be invisible no matter what kind of camouflaging technology they had, that’s being ‘cloaked.’ If the Romulans wouldn’t have been aware of their existence, they’d have no reason to scan for them.

And I’m not being argumentative; I’m pointing out flaws in continuity.

 

[Noname Given]

Which doesn’t make much sense in the context of future Trek series. The fact that Michelle Yeoh will be starring in a Section 31 series soon, it stands to reason that the organization is still in existence even after Control was destroyed. That would mean that the mission that Kirk and Spock were given makes no sense. Why, as you say, have Starfleet clearly violate a treaty and Kirk risk his career to steal a cloaking device when Section 31 operatives could have done it without implicating the Federation? The reason: because the concept of Section 31 didn’t exist when TOS was being made. This kind of thing is why retcons almost never work in the larger scheme of overall continuity.

Um, again perhaps Fleet Command and Section 31 didn't want to risk one of their Romulan assets under deep cover? The point is - even in TOS proper, there's obviously covert operatives do spy work. It's not all 'black and white'.

 

[DaveyNY]

That’s not answering my question. If the Section 31 ships could be invisible no matter what kind of camouflaging technology they had, that’s being ‘cloaked.’ If the Romulans wouldn’t have been aware of their existence, they’d have no reason to scan for them.

And I’m not being argumentative; I’m pointing out flaws in continuity.

No, you're being deliberately obtuse .. as usual.

So, two points for you, you win.
Enjoy your victory.

 

[Dukhat]

Um, again perhaps Fleet Command and Section 31 didn't want to risk one of their Romulan assets under deep cover? The point is - even in TOS proper, there's obviously covert operatives do spy work. It's not all 'black and white'.

So Kirk, Spock and the entire crew of the Enterprise, not to mention the ship itself, is risked instead, when there’s already an organization that specializes in covert ops?

 

[Dukhat]

No, you're being deliberately obtuse .. as usual.

You might want to tone down that kind of talk.

 

[Noname Given]

So Kirk, Spock and the entire crew of the Enterprise, not to mention the ship itself, is risked instead, when there’s already an organization that specializes in covert ops?

Yes. Because THAT'S how Fleet Command chose to handle it. They obviously felt it was the best course of action, and Kirk SUCCEEDED in doing it. (Funny that.)

BTW - the original point being 'argued' was that there was no Federation 'covert ops' type operatives in TOS - a belief that is disproven by the events of TOS S3 - "The Enterprise Incident" because again, even before Kirk and Spock become involved, they had to know that the Romulans had a new Cloaking device, as well as the patrol areas of Romulan ships who were using it.

 

[DaveyNY]

You might want to tone down that kind of talk.

Why, because it points out your typical modus operandi.
It is a statement of fact, not an insult.

But whatever, as I said above you win.

 

[Dukhat]

Yes. Because THAT'S how Fleet Command chose to handle it. They obviously felt it was the best course of action, and Kirk SUCCEDED in doing it. (Funny that.)

The mission was a success in spite of Kirk’s actions, not because of them. And in the overall context, the mission makes no sense. YMMV.

Why, because it points out your typical modus operandi.
It is a statement of fact, not an insult.

A mod can decide that.

 

[Noname Given]

The mission was a success in spite of Kirk’s actions, not because of them. And in the overall context, the mission makes no sense. YMMV.

Conpatred to actual space science in the real universe, Star Trek and the way it depicts intragalactic space travel makes no sense...so, what's you point?

 

[The Old Mixer]

No, you're being deliberately obtuse .. as usual.

Easy there...

 

[Dukhat]

Conpatred to actual space science in the real universe, Star Trek and the way it depicts intragalactic space travel makes no sense...so, what's you point?

I made my point above. There was no reason for the Federation to basically have Kirk risk an overt act of war just to get a cloaking device when Section 31 could have done the job covertly. As I said before, it’s the result of bad retconning continuity. But it is what it is. You’re welcome to come up with theories to try to fit it all together, but I’m not convinced. It’s an agree-to-disagree situation.

 

[DaveyNY]

Easy there...

Yes, I approached the line and slid a toe over it to my detriment, my apologies to you and my fellow posters.
I'm a bit on edge due to personal life problems so I will be refraining from further engagement in this thread today.
<bows out>

 

[fireproof78]

Which doesn’t make much sense in the context of future Trek series. The fact that Michelle Yeoh will be starring in a Section 31 series soon, it stands to reason that the organization is still in existence even after Control was destroyed. That would mean that the mission that Kirk and Spock were given makes no sense. Why, as you say, have Starfleet clearly violate a treaty and Kirk risk his career to steal a cloaking device when Section 31 operatives could have done it without implicating the Federation? The reason: because the concept of Section 31 didn’t exist when TOS was being made. This kind of thing is why retcons almost never work in the larger scheme of overall continuity.

It depends on how functional and reliable Section 31 is 10 years post DSC. Perhaps Starfleet didn't trust them, or the mission had involved Section 31 assets but they needed more plausible deniability in order to access the resource.

The Romulans are suspicious by nature. For all we know they killed the S31 agents on the mission.

The point is, it can work inside continuity but there is going to be additional layers added to it. And that's fine by me.

YMMV in terms of how the seams line up.

 

[Tuskin38]

Didn't one of the novels make Kirk's mission to capture the cloaking device connected to S31?