How does Seska rate?

[jmidnight_99]

How so? She had worn out her welcome on Voyager, and friends willing to take her in, where she was also granted a place of power. She explains everything to Chakotay and Janeway just before she leaves Voyager, and they are totally rational.

There is a difference between someone who rationalizes and someone who is rational. Seka was rationalizing her poor choices. Her entire argument and lots of these points are moot... Seska made her choices, wound up dead, and Voyager got home...

BTW, The Borg knew of the Kazon. So they must have had a presence in the area.

 

[at Quark's]

I'll agree that Seska probably was more rationalising than rational at that point.

In itself, Seska's idea of simply ignoring the prime directives and Starfleet guidelines to try to change the DQ situation in their favour might have been rational to start with- but that's a very different discussion. (Besides, Seska seemed to just love dirty power politics for their own sake, like more Cardassians). After she got frustrated by those senseless obstructions (to her) to an efficient course of action she stopped being rational.

I agree that Seska might have been safer off on Voyager in the brig - in fact it's quite suprising she got as far as she did. One of those days, she might have simply annoyed the Culluh a tad too much with her "feminism", or a relatively powerful underling might have gotten an intense dislike to her and stabbed her in the back- she might be Cardassian and used to surviving such situations, but still.

Then again, Janeway didn't always take the most rational, or at least, risk-averse decisions either and Voyager was potentially in a very vulnerable position. Probably, the safest course of action would have been to simply accept that the Borg Queen snatched 7 back instead of going to retrieve her, for example, or not get involved in the Unimatrix zero fight, or not dive into that neutron star cluster which encounter Tuvok estimated to have a less than 10% chance of survival, or, more generally, to not get involved in several situations along the way that could have been avoided. We knew she and her crew would get out of all of these situations unscathed, but that's an out of universe perspective. Of course in most of those circumstancers there were narrative constructs to justify Janeway's decision (or at least make them understandable), but still. So would Seska really have been safer on board? I think if you would turn off the "protagonist failsafe effect" the odds of Voyager getting safely home (considering the dangers they faced over the years) would have been < 1% in any circumstance.

 

[Nightdiamond]

How did she become so evil though?

At first she was driven by understandable motives and yes, she was a Cardassian spy, but by the time of that hologram episode, she was sadistic.

It was like she went from being anxious to get home, to being desperate, to being totally evil.

 

[at Quark's]

^Flanderization, I suppose, as she was revealed to be the Evil Cardassian.

https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/Flanderization

 

[Prax]

There is a difference between someone who rationalizes and someone who is rational. Seka was rationalizing her poor choices. Her entire argument and lots of these points are moot... Seska made her choices, wound up dead, and Voyager got home...

Seska doesn't have the benefit of 20/20 hindsight that we do. She felt that Voyager needed protection. This is rational, as we know they did. The Kazon were willing to offer that protection, and Seska was willing to make a deal with them. Janeway was not willing, nor even Chakotay, so Seska had to carry this out this in secret. By chance, the Kazon made a mistake in using the technology Seska gave to them, and by an even greater chance, Voyager found out about it. Seska could have come clean, but we know this isn't in her character(from episodes like Prime Factors), so she had to cover her tracks, and she had a contingency plan. It stands to reason that she had an ally(Jonas) on Voyager that helped her help the Kazon, and perhaps this is what she had on him in the second season.

And like I said, if she had not fled Voyager, she would have lost all control of the situation and been at the mercy of Janeway, who might have deemed her too dangerous for even the brig and put her off the ship(just like Kirk did to Khan)

BTW, The Borg knew of the Kazon. So they must have had a presence in the area.

The Borg knew of the Federation, the Ferengi, the Romulans, and the Klingons, yet had no presence in their regions either. The Borg can go wherever they want. The Borg knew of the Talaxians also. Seven says they assimilated a Talaxian transport. The point is, from Seska's perspective, there are no Borg. Voyager doesn't even get wind of them until they are far out of the region where Kazon can be found. It's not a factor in her decision making process.

How did she become so evil though?

At first she was driven by understandable motives and yes, she was a Cardassian spy, but by the time of that hologram episode, she was sadistic.

It was like she went from being anxious to get home, to being desperate, to being totally evil.

Well, not including the holodeck episode, she wasn't exactly evil, but she wanted Voyager, and promised to help Cullah seize it as part of her arrangement with him. The Voyager crew had become her adversaries, so from the perspective of the heroes(and ours), she is now their enemy.

As for the holodeck episode(which imo, is a really, really great episode, and great to see Seska as a Bajoran again), perhaps it's showing her true colors and vindictive spirit. Tuvok was creating this program in secret. No one else knew about it, so the plan probably was that Tuvok would go into the holodeck(alone) to work on his training program, and later be found there dead, and the crew would be none the wiser as to the cause. They would say "Tuvok was working on a holoprogram and somehow the safeties were deactivated and a terrible accident happened"

She really hated Janeway, and killing Tuvok(with "poetic Justice" from her perspective) would demoralize her to a great degree.

We see in DS9 that Garak, even though he could be the most pleasant person to talk to, and a great ally, also had this vindictive spirit, and was capable of great evil. We learn that he took pride in his torture sessions, and never had to be asked to do any dirty work, as he delighted in it, and was highly motivated

 

[jmidnight_99]

How did she become so evil though?

At first she was driven by understandable motives and yes, she was a Cardassian spy, but by the time of that hologram episode, she was sadistic.

It was like she went from being anxious to get home, to being desperate, to being totally evil.

It was just a writer's device to create conflict. The character wasn't particularly interesting, nor did her actions make much sense, and thankfully the thread ran it's course.

Someone wrote a very lengthy response to one of my posts on the subject, and it's just too long to read through and respond to.

It makes no sense that she sided with an inferior race, with the hope that they will be able to defeat a superior one with better defenses. Rationalizing this stupid decision twenty different ways isn't a convincing argument.

She went from being a spy to being an idiot. And subsequently died for it.

 

[Prax]

It was just a writer's device to create conflict. The character wasn't particularly interesting, nor did her actions make much sense, and thankfully the thread ran it's course.

Someone wrote a very lengthy response to one of my posts on the subject, and it's just too long to read through and respond to.

It makes no sense that she sided with an inferior race, with the hope that they will be able to defeat a superior one with better defenses. Rationalizing this stupid decision twenty different ways isn't a convincing argument.

She went from being a spy to being an idiot. And subsequently died for it.

How can you call an argument unconvincing while at the same time admitting you didn't bother to read it?

You've taken a chain of events/series of decisions and reduced them to a single "irrational decision," but it wasn't a single decision.

• Voyager needs protection.
• Kazon can give protection.
• Kazon offer. Price is reasonable.

What is rational?

• Janeway is not willing because of Starfleet non-interference policies.

• Voyager still needs protection.

• Seska secretly takes up the Kazon on their offer, gives them minor technology in exchange for protection.

• Voyager is now safer

• Seska is caught due to a random, freak set of occurrences.

• Now Seska needs protection
• Kazon offer. Seska accepts

Also, if one Kazon vessel is a threat to Voyager, then what is a whole region of space full of Kazon vessels? Not inferior.

Nor does Seska attempt to take Voyager through sheer strength, but through clever manipulation and trickery. She succeeds. She now holds a prominent position in the most powerful Kazon group. She's her own little empress, and the Kazon need her more than ever now.

She dies...because the heroes win through heroics.

 

[STEPhon IT]

How were his actions "un-Cardassian"?

It wasn't smart.

 

[Tosk]

It wasn't smart.

I'm sure the Cardassians would be pleased to hear that you think that species-wide, they can't make decisions that don't end with victory.

 

[Nightdiamond]

^Flanderization, I suppose, as she was revealed to be the Evil Cardassian.

I always wondered what was the official name for this trope, but this is pretty much what it was. It seemed like this episode was shot around the time when shades of grey characters were still rare. You were either good or evil just for the sake of being good or evil.

Skipping the other episodes, and focusing on the holodeck one, Seska is certifiably evil. I mean, she wants the Starfleet crew to suffer and slowly. This not the Seska that's wants to get home early.

The one thing that gave her that complexity was that in the beginning, she did say she was trying to get everyone home, Maquis and Starfleet alike.

It makes no sense that she sided with an inferior race, with the hope that they will be able to defeat a superior one with better defenses. Rationalizing this stupid decision twenty different ways isn't a convincing argument.

She went from being a spy to being an idiot. And subsequently died for it.

A rough way to put it, but I have to agree. I could never understand her motive right from when I first saw the episode. I thought her original motive was to get home, as soon as possible. Check.

So she was willing to break rules and do whatever. Check- understandable, since it looked almost impossible at that point, and she wasn't a Starfleet officer.

And then she defects to the Kazon, who aren't going anywhere. Uncheck. I never understood it.

Even if they did capture Voyager, that didn't mean Seska was not going to get any closer to going back home soon. The Kazon weren't going anywhere. They wanted the ship to use it to become superior to their rivals. They're not setting course for the AQ and investigating ways to get there.

If anything, she's stuck at the starting point of their journey with a group with less advanced tech, that only wants the ship so they can go marauding around plundering and conquering their rivals.

You've taken a chain of events/series of decisions and reduced them to a single "irrational decision," but it wasn't a single decision.

• Voyager needs protection.
• Kazon can give protection.
• Kazon offer. Price is reasonable.

I will say this; when you study her motives they do make sense. The problem is, you just have to study them closely because at first look, they look really odd. But their is a logic to them.

The funny thing is that after Seska defected, Janeway did try to form an alliance with the Kazon's enemies that went totally wrong. And later on, some questionable alliances with "the devil" for the same reasons.

 

[jmidnight_99]

I will say this; when you study her motives they do make sense. The problem is, you just have to study them closely because at first look, they look really odd. But their is a logic to them.

The funny thing is that after Seska defected, Janeway did try to form an alliance with the Kazon's enemies that went totally wrong. And later on, some questionable alliances with "the devil" for the same reasons.

I see this the other way around. The irrationality creeps in one one examines the "logic" in context with the Kazon.

"You've taken a chain of events/series of decisions and reduced them to a single "irrational decision," but it wasn't a single decision.

• Voyager needs protection.
• Kazon can give protection.
• Kazon offer. Price is reasonable.

• Voyager needs protection. Agreed.
• Kazon can give protection. The Kazon are not even loyal to each other. Their technology is inferior, and they are unstable and violent. What protection can they give?
  
• Kazon offer. The price is reasonable. What? You're going to tell me arming and supplying inferior, violent, warlike people with advanced technology is going to change them and make them loyal and respectable? The price is extreme risk.

When you examine this closely it makes more sense that the Kazon would have turned on Voyager as soon as they got what they wanted, and then went about being exactly what they were: Violent power-seekers. There is no chain of events. It's not even logical.

Did the Vaadwaur episode teach us nothing?

 

[jmidnight_99]

How can you call an argument unconvincing while at the same time admitting you didn't bother to read it?

Because it's just a long winded version of the same narrative. Your entire argument assumes two things: There is rationality in trusting the weak, inferior and untrustworthy, and second, there is rationality in completely aligning yourself with the weak, inferior and untrustworthy.

It doesn't matter how many ways you argue it, trusting or aligning yourself with such people is neither rational not logical. Seska could not be in the role she was in, a spy, and still be as stupid as the decisions she made.

 

[Prax]

She didn't "completely align" herself with with them. She secretly gave them a replicator. That's all we know that she did for them. And they aren't "inferior." They are a threat. They have the ability to defeat Voyager.

My comment was no more long winded than the one you just posted.

Seska doesn't have the benefit of 20/20 hindsight that we do. She felt that Voyager needed protection. This is rational, as we know they did. The Kazon were willing to offer that protection, and Seska was willing to make a deal with them. Janeway was not willing, nor even Chakotay, so Seska had to carry this out this in secret. By chance, the Kazon made a mistake in using the technology Seska gave to them, and by an even greater chance, Voyager found out about it. Seska could have come clean, but we know this isn't in her character(from episodes like Prime Factors), so she had to cover her tracks, and she had a contingency plan. It stands to reason that she had an ally(Jonas) on Voyager that helped her help the Kazon, and perhaps this is what she had on him in the second season.

And like I said, if she had not fled Voyager, she would have lost all control of the situation and been at the mercy of Janeway, who might have deemed her too dangerous for even the brig and put her off the ship(just like Kirk did to Khan)

 

[Qonundrum]

While other villains did have more consistently memorable - hers were more intimate and on multiple levels:

She rewired the holodeck ahead of time for one final caper ("Worst Case Scenario", which shows what Voyager could have been in a neat 43 minute condensed package), and speaking of packages: earlier in the show's run she stole Chakotay's DNA (offscreen, thankfully) to make a baby without his consent (not too unlike that cheesy made-for-tv movie I saw decades ago where the girl stole her boyfriend's freshly used prophylactic, whoops). He, then later, still felt compelled to save his child, in a trap set up in "Basics" (since some men have empathy for their own children). That's a pretty bold set of events. Especially when it later turned out the child was not his.

 

[jmidnight_99]

She didn't "completely align" herself with with them. She secretly gave them a replicator. That's all we know that she did for them. And they aren't "inferior." They are a threat. They have the ability to defeat Voyager.

My comment was no more long winded than the one you just posted.

I'm sorry, but they were inferior. A worker race that didn't even own the technology they had, it was taken from someone else. The Borg couldn't be bothered to assimilate them: "Their biological and technological distinctiveness was unremarkable. They were unworthy of assimilation."

Kinda wraps it up in a nutshell.

 

[Farscape One]

I'm forced to agree. When even the Borg leave you alone because you don't have anything worth their time, you are officially at the bottom end of the chain.

 

[weissmr]

I really like Seska. She did a great job of keeping the Voyager crew on their toes. I understand the Kazon are not well regarded but I do enjoy "Basics". "Worst Case Scenario" is one of my favorite episodes. I was also happy to see Seska show up in "Shattered". I also enjoy the actress. I think she also did some voice acting as your first officer on Star Trek: Bridge Commander.

 

[Prax]

Why does Voyager worry about Kazon? Why don't they just swat them away whenever they see them?

Could a hundred Roman soldiers just stroll alone through Illyria unimpeded and in no danger because they are superior soldiers?

 

[STEPhon IT]

I'm sure the Cardassians would be pleased to hear that you think that species-wide, they can't make decisions that don't end with victory.

Did you miss the section where I expressed I didn't like the episode "The Die is Cast" because it was a turning point where the Cardassians were no longer the major villains??? I thought the Cardassians were interesting when they were relevant in the 1st 2 seasons and what remained in the 3rd season. Tain was a fool to try to invade the Dominion; a space they (Their secret force) didn't know. WIth him and the Romulans joining on a venture doesn't seem very Romulan to me, the entire story seemed out of character for both species. Yes, the Romulans would be pleased as well that I think species-WIDE, they can't make decisions that don't end with victory.

 

[Farscape One]

We do have to remember that the Founders got wind of Tain's plan and did everything they could to make it happen. It's very possible that without a Founder on the Tal Shiar side, Tain's plan would have died in its first stages, long before the Obsidian Order built a fleet in Orias... without cloaking devices, Cardassian ships would have been picked off LONG before they got to the Founders' homeworld. And even though they got the location of it from the Romulans with the Federation deal for the Defiant, it would have taken them much longer to get that information through covert means. The entire plan hinged on the Tal Shiar working with Tain.

So the Founders posing as a top Romulan made a lot of sense and is a good explanation, especially given the potential actions of the Romulan ship in "VISIONARY". (And retroactively because of ENTERPRISE, we are shown that Romulans are capable of doing things that will eliminate what they believe to be a threat. Look at the "UNITED" trilogy in season 4... it backfired, yes, but it was not a bad plan to destabilize a big area of space. If it worked, the Federation would not have existed... or at least not be created until MUCH later.)