Federations Members

[Arpy]

@Sci, the novel-verse contradicts both itself and canon over time, so I’m not too married to anything there.

The Federation may be able to vote against “flag of convenience,” but how do they know which flags are of convenience or legitimate? And, yes, they can arbitrarily vote as they like, but I’m thinking best possible scenario if we’re going to make stuff up, which is what Trek is.

 

[Sci]

@Sci, the novel-verse contradicts both itself and canon over time, so I’m not too married to anything there.

I mean, so does the canon. At a certain point, I just don't think internal consistency is all that important. In fiction, telling a good story is most important -- and for the purposes of a message board discussion about how various political systems could work, I think it's fine to pick and choose amongst non-canonical works in addition to canonical works.

The Federation may be able to vote against “flag of convenience,” but how do they know which flags are of convenience or legitimate?

I really don't think those sorts of hegemon/client relationships amongst planetary populations are the sorts of things that you can hide. Like, nobody looks at the relationship between, say, Russia and Belarus, and walks away imagining to themselves that Belarus isn't under Moscow's thumb. Even less overtly imperialistic relationships can't really be hidden on a national or planetary scale -- nobody's surprised when the Anglosphere nations back each other up in the U.N. These kinds of relationships aren't even possible to hide at the regional/sub-national level -- everyone knows the Rust Belt states tend to vote as a bloc, everyone knows the Deep South tends to vote as a bloc, everyone knows the New England states tend to vote as a bloc.

So realistically, everyone would know if, say, the Planetary Republic of New Texas, comprised of the descendants of settlers from Texas, Earth, were likely to closely align itself with or follow orders from United Earth upon joining the UFP. And if they so chose, the Federation Councillors for the Andorian Empire, the Confederacy of Vulcan, the United Planets of Tellar, the United Rigel Worlds and Colonies, and the Kingdom of Arkhen could simply vote not to admit.

 

[Arpy]

I mean, so does the canon. At a certain point, I just don't think internal consistency is all that important. In fiction, telling a good story is most important -- and for the purposes of a message board discussion about how various political systems could work, I think it's fine to pick and choose amongst non-canonical works in addition to canonical works.



I really don't think those sorts of hegemon/client relationships amongst planetary populations are the sorts of things that you can hide. Like, nobody looks at the relationship between, say, Russia and Belarus, and walks away imagining to themselves that Belarus isn't under Moscow's thumb. Even less overtly imperialistic relationships can't really be hidden on a national or planetary scale -- nobody's surprised when the Anglosphere nations back each other up in the U.N. These kinds of relationships aren't even possible to hide at the regional/sub-national level -- everyone knows the Rust Belt states tend to vote as a bloc, everyone knows the Deep South tends to vote as a bloc, everyone knows the New England states tend to vote as a bloc.

So realistically, everyone would know if, say, the Planetary Republic of New Texas, comprised of the descendants of settlers from Texas, Earth, were likely to closely align itself with or follow orders from United Earth upon joining the UFP. And if they so chose, the Federation Councillors for the Andorian Empire, the Confederacy of Vulcan, the United Planets of Tellar, the United Rigel Worlds and Colonies, and the Kingdom of Arkhen could simply vote not to admit.

And yet they vote time and again to let in redundant human flags after Earth, Alpha Centauri, Deneva, Berengaria, and others? Mars? Luna? Why? Because it's fun imagining "alien" humans? Nah. I think they're all just states in the union. If broader unity isn't important, there's little reason why nation-states can't remain independent and maybe align themselves with different planets or nation-states on different planets, human an alien alike. Ditto corporations.

Also, it's not about hiding anything. Memberworlds can choose to completely sever ties with each other in earnest if ultimately they feel it will get them racial dominance. And many might vote for it choosing the same for themselves.

Or they could sever ties because they no longer self-identify as a nation, having successfully evolved into another phase of their social evolution. And many might vote for it hoping honestly the same for themselves when they're ready to do the same.

I dunno, voting blocks seem silly to me. If you vote together that often, how far away are you really from being a single state? Less so I think than different populations within different states, and they somehow manage to hold together well enough. The tradition of being separate states is charming but maybe only still relevant not due to identity but voting power.

Thinking about the different species in Trek, again, I think the only reason for separate memberworlds at all, for a Federation over a Republic, is due to fundamental biological/psychological differences alone.