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Poll Is Rey a Mary Sue?

Is Rey a Mary Sue

  • Yes, she absolutely is-make arguments below

    Votes: 24 25.3%
  • No, she is not-make arguments below

    Votes: 34 35.8%
  • Mary Sue is a meaningless term

    Votes: 27 28.4%
  • Don't know, don't care

    Votes: 12 12.6%
  • Doesn't impact me one way or the other

    Votes: 11 11.6%

  • Total voters
    95
One thing I've learnt from this thread, other than the value of good grammar, punctuation and spelling, is that I'm not alone in having found Luke to be disturbingly comfortable with personal loss and killing.

In the space of ANH pretty much every person he has ever known dies violently and he in turn kills uncounted thousands of people.

For most of us that would be a pretty traumatic few days.
 
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I vaguely remember the character, but I don't really remember her standing out the way characters like Sarah Connor, Ripley, Buffy, or Sydney Bristow from Alias did.

Sarah Conner has always been the star of the Terminator franchise for me, but that's another subject for another thread.
 
One thing I've learnt from this thread, other than the value of good grammar, punctuation and spelling, is that I'm not alone in having found Luke to be disturbingly comfortable with personal loss and killing.

In the space of ANH pretty much ever person he has ever known dies violently and he in turn kills uncounted thousands of people.

For most of us that would be a pretty traumatic few days.
Swashbuckling: movies and shows where the moral implications of violence might be implied but only to a slight degree.. but they are not dwelled upon. Which is why Superman killing Zod in Man of Steel is entirely different than him doing it in Superman 2.

It's the reason why we don't consider shooting stormtroopers "murder"
 
Swashbuckling: movies and shows where the moral implications of violence might be implied but only to a slight degree.. but they are not dwelled upon. Which is why Superman killing Zod in Man of Steel is entirely different than him doing it in Superman 2.

It's the reason why we don't consider shooting stormtroopers "murder"

Really?

So you are saying SW is shallow?

Thought it was a classic?
 
Yes you did, right here:

Swashbuckling: movies and shows where the moral implications of violence might be implied but only to a slight degree.. but they are not dwelled upon. Which is why Superman killing Zod in Man of Steel is entirely different than him doing it in Superman 2.

It's the reason why we don't consider shooting stormtroopers "murder"

Actually if you were saying that I'd agree with you.

Now, you may not consider the killing of storm troopers "murder", but there's a reason the rank and file bad guys all wear masks or are droids and it's not budgetary. It's because it's much easier to dehumanise them and thus not be presented with the moral questions which would detract from the fun. It makes the people whose faces you do see much more valuable by comparison. You're more invested in them.

You don't want to think about the pilots of Empire fighters being people who are scared or in pain, people with families who have just lost a father or brother, because there's only room for so much pathos within a film. The good guys, the rogue squadron, the gaurds who die facing Vader and trying to prevent Leias' capture, we're supposed to care when they die, supposed to see their suffering and fear. It differentiates the actions of the heroes and the villains and stops us asking awkward questions about what the difference actually is between them.

In other words it's done precisely to make the film less morally and intellectually challenging and avoid exploring difficult questions.

In other words avoid unnecessary depth.

It's basic stuff and a well known trope of film making.

Luke, on the other hand, is someone we are supposed to be exploring. We are supposed to actually be invested in him and his lack of healthy human reactions to immense tragedy pulls me out of the story. We see another double standard here in the treatment of Anakin who, despite arguably showing sociopathic tendencies (and he does), questions and is troubled by the consequences of his actions. It's a change in the tempo and the timbre of the film making which can only be explained as Lucas selectively investing his main characters with the sort of personal depth which warrants explanation.

Quite literally it happens when it suits and that robs the entire franchise in terms of how we engage with these characters. For me it is difficult to ignore and jars far more than anything about Reys' portrayal.

Luke looks shallow, soulless and empty by comparison to Anakin, Anakin looks melodramatic by comparison to Luke, but it isn't just about the characters, it's about the tone and style of the films they are shown in.

ANH is shallow, it does avoid anything which might look problematic next to the simple narrative or cast the clear binary divide of hero and villain into question, but in doing so it presents us with a problem. In light of the later films which do, to some extent at least, explore those questions it renders Luke a very difficult person to relate to. If he is to be more than an archetype we cannot ignore what is on screen and that doesn't play out well for him at all.
 
Maybe he is not to be much more than an archetype.. and any further development needs to be peppered (not sumped) on him..
I miss when it was just the original trilogy
 
Maybe he is not to be much more than an archetype.. and any further development needs to be peppered (not sumped) on him..
I miss when it was just the original trilogy

In which case why the hate for Reys' lack of early development?

Luke is essentially bored and wants an adventure, that's his motivation. He says he hates the Empire as much as anyone but dreams of joining the Imperial Academy anyway. Likewise the deaths of his family don't motivate him to seek revenge or to redress the evil which killed them, merely frees him up from his boring duties on the farm. It's a convenience, not a character driver.

He doesn't ask moral questions along the way on his adventure, he doesn't ponder the consequences of his actions. He sides with Obi Wan and frees Leia despite knowing essentially nothing about either of them other than one has lied for years and the other is under arrest for something. He picks up Han and Chewie along the way despite knowing they are professional criminals.

In other words decides to carry out a jailbreak of a complete stranger for no reason other than that's what his new friend is doing today.

His only real attachment once that farm is destroyed is whatever happens to be in front of him and he doesn't ask why, nor does he have an end goal, he just goes along with it because he has nothing better to do and is completely detached from the implications. He doesn't worry about the deaths, or whether he really should free this person who has been arrested, or whether he is on the right side, or what he is fighting for.

Even as he develops over the trilogy the depth is superficial and contrived at best, "good" is merely a euphemism for "on our side", the only real lessons being about an amoral in universe philosophy which is handily contrived to keep on creating bitter binary conflicts which cost trillions of lives, the Jedi and the Sith being two sides of a coin and a demonstratable failure where it comes to benefiting any greater good. The universe is better without any of them.

Any truly moral being would seek an end to the cycle, not ultimate victory or "balance" (whatever that actually means), which is very much where we find him in TLJ.
 
To add to the moral implications of the original Star Wars: One can call this a rebellion, but what are they really? Yes, Palpatine's regime has some questionable stuff going on but looking solely at A New Hope, what do we know about the people of that galaxy? Yeah, there's some references to keeping local systems in line, but what does that mean? How many systems are truly oppressed? We can't tell that. How do we know that many worlds are unaffected and that there are maybe 100 systems that are uprising at this time? Do we know how the galaxy sees the Rebellion? Do they see them as freedom fighters or do they see then as terrorists? I'm sure the reaction is mixed.

I still love A New Hope and try very hard to remember that it is a simplistic black and white fairy tale for children. Its fun for an afternoon movie where you can turn your brain off. But the moment you add some thought to it, there are quite a few issues that arise.
 
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To add to the moral implications of the original Star Wars: One can call this a rebellion, but what are they really? Yes, Palpatine's regime has some questionable stuff going on but looking solely at A New Hope, what do we know about the people of that galaxy? Yeah, there's some references to keeping local systems in line, but what does that mean? How many systems are truly oppressed? We can't tell that. How do we know that many worlds are unaffected and that there are maybe 100 systems that are uprising at this time? Do we know how the galaxy sees the Rebellion? Do they see them as freedom fighters or do they see then as terrorists? I'm sure the reaction is mixed.

I still love A New Hope and try very hard to remember that it is a simplistic black and white fairy tale for children. Its fun for an afternoon movie where you can turn your brain off. But the moment you add some thought to it, there are quite a few issues that arise.

Indeed, the Rebels are indeed terrorists in their tactics and great care is taken by Lucas to prevent their being in a position where their actions might visibly cause civilians deaths.

That being said, who exactly was on the Death Star? Does anyone even ask? I doubt very much that it was entirely combatants or military personnel. Did they have families on there? Children? Were they all volunteers or did they outsource labour to contractors who didn't even know what they were aboard?

There's a simple assumption that the protaganists are good and the enemy are evil built into the fabric of the film and you aren't supposed to question that, nor are you supposed to really wonder about the duality of the Jedi/Sith relationship or the fact that they are interdependent groups. You aren't really supposed to question any of it, including the variously included religious images and icons throughout the settings, the ruthlessness of both Luke and Han, the callous bullying of C3PO, the normalised racism in the galaxy, the irresponsibility of Obi Wan and Yoda placing so much responsibility on an unsuspecting child, the casual treatment of the massacre at the farm, you're just supposed to cheer when our hero blows up the big bad thing.

That's not to deride the film, but if we are to love it we should love it for what it is, not for a fantasy of what it could or should be. It's a gloriously camp and fun rip roaring adventure with overtones of spirituality thrown in for flavour, but it's not a deeply introspective or challenging film.
 
Its actually one of the reasons why I appreciate the prequels and the sequels. They certainly aren't perfect and there are days I wish it had stopped with just the 1977 Star Wars. But they add some challenging wrinkles to the saga that I don't think some fans want to deal with. They want that simplistic tale. That black and white. Unfortunately for them, that really hasn't existed since before the prequels.
 
You can choose to just watch the OT and ignore everything else if the complications inherent in adding entries to the series tends to do. Honestly, man, complaining about the rest of this stuff isn’t going to change anything.
Exactly. I never understand the complaints around the PT or ST "ruining" the OT. Like, I just ignore them, same way I ignored all the books that insisted the Emperor came back, that Han and Leia's kid turned to the Dark Side and Luke got married. None of that impacts my enjoyment of the OT.

If one prefers the OT then go back and just watch it.
I still love A New Hope and try very hard to remember that it is a simplistic black and white fairy tale for children. Its fun for an afternoon movie where you can turn your brain off. But the moment you add some thought to it, there are quite a few issues that arise.
There are several issues that arise, and if we just had "Star Wars" then it would probably rarely come up.

But, Empire introduced moral gray areas, with bad guys being former good guys (Anakin) and apparent good guys being untrustworthy/bad (Lando). Each film after the black and white morality of ANH added more shades in to it.
Its actually one of the reasons why I appreciate the prequels and the sequels. They certainly aren't perfect and there are days I wish it had stopped with just the 1977 Star Wars. But they add some challenging wrinkles to the saga that I don't think some fans want to deal with. They want that simplistic tale. That black and white. Unfortunately for them, that really hasn't existed since before the prequels.
I would argue it hasn't existed since ESB and ROTJ, with the whole "a certain point of view" diatribe.
 
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