Poll Is Rey a Mary Sue?

[Spot261]

I do feel like a lot of misunderstanding arises from the association of Kylo with his spiritual predecessors in Sith Lords.

Put simply, he isn't one. He's nothing like Vader or Maul or Dooku. In fact in terms of combat skills he's not really all that special at all.

He's pretty skilled by the standards of non force users but even there it's not a foregone conclusion, we've seen him at the very least sweat against Finn and against Snokes' bodygaurds, bodygaurds whose PT counterparts were simply brushed aside by Yoda or Obi Wan with barely a flick of the hand.

He swings his light saber with a proficiency which might best be described as competent, compared to Darth Maul, Palpatine, Dooku, Yoda, Obi Wan, Qui Gonn, Mace Windu or franky any PT generic Jedi who could swat aside barrages of blaster fire, somersault and perform acrobatics which would look at home in the goofiest of kung fu movies, move faster than the eye could follow and treated tall buildings as things to jump on and off more casually than most of us climb stairs.

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[BillJ]

haha reading all these counters is funny. None of them have said why this makes REy a good character, why this makes the storytelling good.

I mean really.

Dude, you are all over the fucking place. We get you don’t like the character, which is fair (I’m not a fan of Michael Burnham). What isn’t fair is to try and force your views on the rest of us.

 

[Kor]

A Mary Sue is an author surrogate who shows up and upstages an already-established set of main characters and romantically seduces a bunch of them along the way.

So no, Rey is not a Mary Sue (for the millionth time).

Kor

 

[Flying Spaghetti Monster]

so, if they want a good female character.. why not have her have setbacks, get injured a little, have her show some kind of struggle. As much as you guys try to set up a 1:1 Luke Rey comparison to justify Rey and in the meantime you are retroactively bashing a character who was fine until you needed him not to be, the original films had ways of humanizing the character by giving him setbacks.. so doing all this "Luke was this so that's the same with Rey" might be okay for a while but it doesn't make her a good character.. and you might say that this does not make her a mary sue, yet if she wasn't why would so many people bring it up.. and its from all those fans that found that after the falcon scene they realized that she was going to be ok and they stopped caring for her.. that whether it conforms to a strict dictionary definition of a "mary sue" or not, if people don't care about the character, if they are just aware that she is going to be alright, than that is what matters. They should maybe alleviate this by concentrate on not just her superpowers and talents but by concentrating on actual characterization. this is why Brigman, Connor, and Ripley were great female characters..

 

[Campe]

You don’t seem to grasp the concept of a double standard.

 

[Skipper]

A Mary Sue is an author surrogate who shows up and upstages an already-established set of main characters and romantically seduces a bunch of them along the way.

So no, Rey is not a Mary Sue (for the millionth time).

Kor

And by the way, I would like to know which author he's talking about, considering there are three screenwriters credited for Episode 7...

 

[fireproof78]

why not have her have setbacks, get injured a little, have her show some kind of struggle.

She did all these things. So, that's why I'm ok with her as a character.

and you might say that this does not make her a mary sue, yet if she wasn't why would so many people bring it up

Because it's a double standard shorthand for "character I don't like, specifically female character I don't like."

 

[Booji]

I pay good money to support the ignore feature. Use it my children. Send the heathens to the netherworld, give them no voice, and let them spew into the ether. Then rejoice in your newfound joy. Love and peace to you all.

 

[BillJ]

...and in the meantime you are retroactively bashing a character who was fine until you needed him not to be...

Are you saying that no one ever criticized Luke and the original trilogy until the creation of Rey in The Force Awakens?

You sir, are full of shit or delusional. My wife has been calling Luke a whiny brat since I met her in 1992.

 

[Campe]

Are you saying that no one ever criticized Luke and the original trilogy until the creation of Rey in The Force Awakens?

You sir, are full of shit or delusional. My wife has been calling Luke a whiny brat since I met her in 1992.

Luke is a whiny brat. Thought that for decades.

 

[Flying Spaghetti Monster]

Whiney brat is irrelevant. That's just how he talks.. ugh

 

[Skipper]

Am I the only one who is a bit disturbed how Luke immediately leaves behind the death of those who were like two parents to him?

 

[Campe]

Am I the only one who is a bit disturbed how Luke immediately leaves behind the death of those who were like two parents to him?

Let’s consider everything that happens to him in that first movie.

• Gets told his dream of going off to the academy isn’t happening
• His aunt and uncle are brutally murdered and he finds their remains
• He leaves the only home he’s ever known
• He loses his mentor
• He loses his best friend

And at the end of the day he doesn’t mourn for what? More than a scene? One of these events would be enough to set somebody back for quite some time.

And again, this has bothered me for many years.

 

[BillJ]

Whiney brat is irrelevant. That's just how he talks.. ugh

Have you noticed how every criticism of Luke is irrelevant, while every criticism of Rey is valid?

Things that make you go hmmm...

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[JD]

I'm still wondering how Luke managed to retrieve his light saber at the beginning of Empire with no training?

I never really thought about it until the last time I watched Empire, and it kind of did bother me. It's a totally new power unconnected to anything we saw him or Obi-Wan did in the first one, and it does kinda come out of nowhere. It's not enough to ruin my love for the movie, but it's one of those things that you can't not wonder about once you notice.

Joking aside, in universe three years passed between ANH and TESB. I suppose that Luke learned some tricks by himself. Let us remember that the following films have shown us that moving something (with difficulty) as small as a lightsaber is nothing impressive. And perhaps Obi's ghost sometimes helped him.

I always thought that Hoth was the first time Luke saw Obi-Wan's ghost. Have we ever gotten stories with Luke seeing him before Hoth?
Once I read the comics with Ben's Journal, I had thought that maybe it had some information on how to use certain Force Powers, like the pull.

this is why Brigman, Connor, and Ripley were great female characters..

Who's Brigman? I don't think I've ever heard the name come up in one of these conversations before.

 

[fireproof78]

Have you noticed how every criticism of Luke is irrelevant, while every criticism of Rey is valid?

I believe that is the definition of double standard. Thus far, the arguments for being a Mary Sue have been thin, at least, especially when compared to Luke or Anakin.

Not liking the character is one thing. I get that. I don't like Han Solo in the OT. He is arrogant, brash and cocky and irritating. But, none of that makes a character a Mary Sue.

I know plenty of people who don't like Luke because he is whiny and annoying in ANH and doesn't always improve. Again, it's a matter of engagement. It doesn't make the character bad; just makes the character not for everyone. And that's ok.

 

[Garak]

so, if they want a good female character.. why not have her have setbacks, get injured a little, have her show some kind of struggle. As much as you guys try to set up a 1:1 Luke Rey comparison to justify Rey and in the meantime you are retroactively bashing a character who was fine until you needed him not to be, the original films had ways of humanizing the character by giving him setbacks.. so doing all this "Luke was this so that's the same with Rey" might be okay for a while but it doesn't make her a good character.. and you might say that this does not make her a mary sue, yet if she wasn't why would so many people bring it up.. and its from all those fans that found that after the falcon scene they realized that she was going to be ok and they stopped caring for her.. that whether it conforms to a strict dictionary definition of a "mary sue" or not, if people don't care about the character, if they are just aware that she is going to be alright, than that is what matters. They should maybe alleviate this by concentrate on not just her superpowers and talents but by concentrating on actual characterization. this is why Brigman, Connor, and Ripley were great female characters..

I've always found Luke to be a very strong female character, one of the best

 

[Flying Spaghetti Monster]

Who's Brigman? I don't think I've ever heard the name come up in one of these conversations before.

Lindsey Brigman from The Abyss.. another character written by James Cameron

 

[ichab]

totally different from Luke.
You couple all the mary sue aspects of her character (that she knows how to fly, wield a lightsaber, knows all the languages) with the fact that we no nothing about the background of the character..

Her background was shown consistently thru flashbacks. Simple logic explains that she grew up on that planet and learned to adapt to her hostile surroundings. I don't need mountains of dialogue to explain that.

coupled with the fact that we don't know what DRIVES the character (why is she doing the right thing, except because the writers need her to)

You need an explanation for why a character is doing the right thing in a movie? Really? You've never met or seen people in real life who commit acts of kindness without any thought of reward? And again, flashbacks and simply watching the movie would have told you that her drive was to see her parents again.

and those three elements combined make her a mary sue .. and the fourth element is that the audience is detached from her, never truly worried about her or surprised when she succeeds.

If that's your definition then there are quite a few male characters who fit that description..

Luke Skywalker....goes from farm boy working with second hand equipment to destroying a death star with a higher technological ship. And don't forget that he picked up a lightsaber and was able to deflect blaster shots blind folded.
Rocky Balboa....goes from a third rate club fighter to nearly defeating the champion of the world after less than a few months training. Don't worry, he defeats him in the next movie after a six month layoff and taking more head shots than any boxing referee would ever allow.
Captain Kirk Star Trek (2009)....Cadet Kirk becomes Captain before he even completes his first mission. And it's captain of the most important ship in the entire fleet.
Roady in Iron Man 2.....No background with using the Iron Man suit, yet he can put it on and go toe to toe with Tony Stark, who is a hundred times smarter and has been using it far longer.
Wesley Crusher... 12 year old who time after time saved the ship or figured things out better than older and more experienced officers.

Let's not forget how the BTS aspects filter in.. this is Disney, this is Kathleen "all I want to talk about is fierce strong female characters, writers and directors" Kennedy

The only Star Wars flicks that were written or directed by females were.......none of them. Not a single Disney flick was written or directed by a woman. If she's talking about it then so what? After the great job Patty Jenkins did with Wonder Woman I'm surprised that she hasn't gotten a call yet from Kennedy.

 

[BillJ]

The only Star Wars flicks that were written or directed by females were.......none of them.

I don’t think facts are going to sway this particular argument.