Federations Members

[Timo]

Of course, we never hear of any "United Earth" after the Federation gets founded. Make of that whatever you wish.

Nor do we hear it confirmed that most of the cultures namedropped on that list would really be UFP members. Bolarus has its bank when the UFP is supposed not to dabble in money any longer. The Trill way of life is at least as problematic as the Ardanan, from the human point of view (not that this would have posed problems for the humans of the 2260s). Other cultures of origin for Starfleet heroes also go without explicit mention, such as Cait or Edos. And we can't really plead implicit, not with Starfleet embracing Bajoran, Ferengi and Klingon employees. Likewise with people who act as diplomatic mediators for the UFP.

The very definition of UFP membership is also lacking. Does an entire species join by default? A planet and its colonies? A political party, regardless of species or place of origin? A unified planet is implied to be the smallest unit eligible for joining, but all of the above would be bigger than that.

The highest figure quoted for "member planets" is Picards "over 150" from ST:FC, possibly a convenient lie to best answer Lily Sloan's ill-formulated question that brought up "planets" in the first place. Lists like the one being assembled here can easily bloat to a figure much greater than that. Does that mean that joining does not necessarily increase the number of members, and a newcomer may instead be absorbed into an existing membership slot?

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Arpy]

^ we’re Trekkies. We can argue Earth isn’t part of the Federation. I’m interested in probability and artistic intent. Who do you think should be added/subtracted from the list?

 

[Tenacity]

The colonies on Mars made some kind of "fundamental declarations," but its unclear if this made them independent from Earth.

The fundamental declaration sounded to me more like it pertained to legal right or civil rights, not the establishment of a separate national entity.

Although Mars could still be independant, through a different documant.

the Human memberworld

What's this thing please?

alpha Centauri? I belive they joined as a seperate member

I feel that if Alpha Cent was one of the founding members, that means it's the homeworld of a non-human species. Maybe there was a human colony allowed on the world, but they aren't the dominate species, nor the instigators of AC founding the Federation.

Eminiar was being courted

Hardly, the Federation ambassador intent was to establish a "treaty port," basically force Eminiar Seven to accept a Federation enclave/base on their soil, an area the Eminiar government would have no control over.

Don't see Horta as a memeber world, but Janus 7 may be a "Colony" since its staffed with humans

The Horta species would be in control of their own homeworld, Humans would have the status of guest workers.

. Maybe it’s one of those Kesprytt things where species have to be united globally and “racially” for them to be eligible.

From the episode I don't think racially was a requirement, pervious Federation applicants were socially/culturally united with each other

Yes it does, it's called United Earth.

No indiation of this. There is a United Earth Space Probe Agency with a connection to Starfleet, seen as resently as the end of the first season of STD, but no direct dialog that the "UE" is Earth's government. Probably Earth's government is called "Earth's Government." Worlds in the Star Trek universe typically have simple names.

Earth is just "Earth."

Earth is a Federation member world just like any other. It's not a special case.

Don't think so, Earth has both the governing body of the Federation, and the Headquarter/Admiriralty of Starfleet. These two facts alone make Earth a special case.

Bolarus has its bank when the UFP is supposed not to dabble in money any longer

Maybe all Federation members have their own money, but the Federation organization has none? Why would the members (with their own money) require the Federation to have it's own money.

If the members don't need the Federation to do something, then the Federation doesn't do it.

 

[Arpy]

What's this thing please?

What don’t you understand form everything mentioned above?

 

[Mr. Laser Beam]

@Tenacity, yes, there is conclusive proof of the name "United Earth".

It's in ENT's Vulcan arc. We see the UE embassy on Vulcan, and it clearly has the words UNITED EARTH on it.

And just because Federation government buildings are located on Earth, doesn't mean anything. They have to be somewhere, don't they? It's no more unusual than, say, the city of Ottawa being the capital of Canada. Ottawa is just another Canadian city, nothing unusual about it.

And if you're thinking Washington, DC - that's a shame. DC should be a state like any other. There's literally no reason not to make it one. But Earth --> Federation is not the same as DC --> the USA. Trek has outgrown that kind of nonsense.

 

[valkyrie013]

Think, The United Nations, there in New York, but not part of the US.
Don't know why all the burocratic side of the Federation is on Earth, I think the Federation government should be on a neutral world, say a colony world thats close to everybody, but belongs to nobody but the Federation, something like DC thats run by the congress. You have all the buerocracy there, and plenty of room for Starbases, Drydocks, Shipyards in that system. Make it to where Earth isn't the primary target!!
Either that or something like a Yuge Yorktown Station thats centerally located.
Understand Earth being a Primary member, but there's to much crap there..

 

[Prax]

Earth kind of was the "neutral world" when it was formed. All of the founding members were enemies of each other, but they liked the humans, cuz humans are awesome!

 

[Tim Thomason]

Of course, we never hear of any "United Earth" after the Federation gets founded. Make of that whatever you wish.

Except for the references to UESPA in TOS and as late as 2293 (Ent-B dedication plaque). Make of that what you will.

 

[Tenacity]

Except for the references to UESPA in TOS and as late as 2293 (Ent-B dedication plaque). Make of that what you will.

The Enteprise made a report of the destruction of a cargo vessel to UESPA (or something that sound similar) in Charlie X. Later Kirk said that UESPA was the Enterprise's operating authority. The Dedication placard for the Enterprise B also mentions the UESPA, but we know that UESPA has a connection to Starfleet.

As for the Earth facility on Vulcan in ENT, the facility seem to have a lot of Starfleet personnel and they could be seen to basically be running the place, and this is why United Earth (space probe agency?) is seen in the signage.

cuz humans are awesome

Can't argue with this.

And if you're thinking Washington, DC

I wasn't

DC should be a state like any other

Nope. It should remain a federal district, and under the exclusive jurisdiction of Congress.

There's literally no reason not to make it one

The Residence Act of 1790.

But Earth --> Federation is not the same as DC --> the USA

Earth > Federation, America > United Nations.

I could actually see a small section of Paris (where the Federation buildings are supposedly located) to be officially not a part of Paris or France or even Earth. A separate district or enclave.

The United Nations, there in New York, but not part of the US

The UN build does stand on America soil, it's not separate.

Don't know why all the burocratic side of the Federation is on Earth

Franz Joseph (in his tech manual) placed the Federation council and associated functions on a large, well protected, space station. I not sure where the station was located.

While the president of the Federation maintains a office on Earth, was it ever clearly stated that the council exclusively meets on Earth?

Make it to where Earth isn't the primary target

One more thing that makes Earth "a special case."

What don’t you understand form everything mentioned above?

Why do you apply "Human memberworld" to a world like Deneva?

Did you mean to indicate it's a Earth colony and Earth is a Federation member.

Or that Deneva was independent of Earth and a it's own Federation member with a primary Human population.

Or that Deneva was independent of Earth and not a Federation member, but owing to it's primary Human population it had strong connections to Earth which is a member?

Or something else?

 

[Arpy]

Why do you apply "Human memberworld" to a world like Deneva?

Did you mean to indicate it's a Earth colony and Earth is a Federation member.

Or that Deneva was independent of Earth and a it's own Federation member with a primary Human population.

Or that Deneva was independent of Earth and not a Federation member, but owing to it's primary Human population it had strong connections to Earth which is a member?

Or something else?

Deneva was an Earth colony, then Federation colony. It would be represented in the council under the human memberworld umbrella.

If a thousand former Earth colonies or Preserver preserves are discovered after 2161, and they want to join, I think they’d send representatives to the humans’ legislature (like any other human planet — including Earth, Luna, Mars, Alpha Centauri, etc) and then that body would send representative(s) to the Federation Council. Otherwise, again, species can game the system to allow their nations or biological quirks uneven influence.

 

[Tenacity]

Deneva was an Earth colony, then Federation colony.

Given it's population of a million people, I've considered that Deneva is probably independent of Earth. At some point you leave your parent's house.

Why would Earth's colonies become Federation colonies? Wouldn't all Federation members retain their colonies (until they cease being colonies)?

 

[Arpy]

Given it's population of a million people, I've considered that Deneva is probably independent of Earth. At some point you leave your parent's house.

I don’t know that I get your meaning here. Leaving your parents house to me would be seceding from the Federation. Would San Diego secede from California?

Why would Earth's colonies become Federation colonies? Wouldn't all Federation members retain their colonies (until they cease being colonies)?

Other than the homeworlds, they’re all Federation colonies, regardless of local administration?

 

[rhubarbodendron]

I think what Tenacity meant is that usually a colony is legally a part of the mother country. That means that if the mother country joins the Federation, the colony would automatically become part of the Federation but only as long as it is a colony.
The instant a colony gains independence from the mother country (as America did with the UK in September 1783 -> Treaty of Paris) it becomes a country in its own right and it's solely for this new country (i.e. the former colony) to decide whether to join any union, like e.g. the Federation, or not.

 

[Arpy]

I think what Tenacity meant is that usually a colony is legally a part of the mother country. That means that if the mother country joins the Federation, the colony would automatically become part of the Federation but only as long as it is a colony.
The instant a colony gains independence from the mother country (as America did with the UK in September 1783 -> Treaty of Paris) it becomes a country in its own right and it's solely for this new country (i.e. the former colony) to decide whether to join any union, like e.g. the Federation, or not.

There are two issues here. One, that the Federation is a union of aliens, each with their own biological as well as cultural differences. A government that can speak for one species many not be able to for another. Say the Bynars are part individual part collective — do they get one vote in a general election or 17 billion?

Two, look at the nomadic Betelgeusians. Say for them every planet, moon, station, asteroid, and starship is a completely independent body from every other. Do they get 126,034 votes in the council?

 

[rhubarbodendron]

there's a breach of logic in your argumentation: nomads don't colonize, they merely travel within a certain territory. Colonizing ( = settling) would be perfectly opposed to a nomadic lifestyle. A nomad who settles ceases to be one.
Hence, a nomadic people would count - and vote - as one single people (covering all their territory, even if it overlaps with others) while settlements of former nomads would have to decide for themselves whether they'd consider themselves perfectly independent or whether they should form a union, based on common history or descent. That would in the extreme lead to every single settlement having one vote, provided that they all consider themselves independent states and are acknowledged as such by the other states (or in our example by the Federation worlds, if the ex-nomad states wish to join them)

 

[valkyrie013]

So a goid question is, what is the federation government like? We attribute it to American republic system with a president, council, and maybe a legislative branch of some sort.
What if the counsel is like the UN ruling councel, and each "Spicies" gets 1 vote I.e. 1 human, 1 vulcan, etc. Regardless of amount of colonies etc. So 150 member soicies, 150 member Council.
Now could have a "house of representatives" type of lower body that has a represinative from every member world and colony, and if able protectorate representative. This way, each individual world would be represented in some way. And maybe the counsel members are confirmed by the house that represents each speces, ie all human worlds and colonies would vote for the 1 human council rep.
This way all worlds would be represented in the federation, not just the main human, vulcan etc. World's.

 

[Mr. Laser Beam]

Nope. It should remain a federal district, and under the exclusive jurisdiction of Congress.

So you're OK with residents of present day DC having absolutely no say in the governance of their city?

"Taxation without representation" is not just a pithy phrase. It's a very real, and unfortunate, fact of life in DC. And it needs to stop. NOW.

 

[Arpy]

there's a breach of logic in your argumentation: nomads don't colonize, they merely travel within a certain territory. Colonizing ( = settling) would be perfectly opposed to a nomadic lifestyle. A nomad who settles ceases to be one.
Hence, a nomadic people would count - and vote - as one single people (covering all their territory, even if it overlaps with others) while settlements of former nomads would have to decide for themselves whether they'd consider themselves perfectly independent or whether they should form a union, based on common history or descent. That would in the extreme lead to every single settlement having one vote, provided that they all consider themselves independent states and are acknowledged as such by the other states (or in our example by the Federation worlds, if the ex-nomad states wish to join them)

Don’t focus on the nomadic part so much. The point is about a people who are completely independent in whatever group they find themselves. Even nomadic ones — after all, these are aliens, and we’re discussing the unknown possibilities of existence.

And that’s just one alien problem, let alone maybe 150+.

 

[Tenacity]

So you're OK with residents of present day DC having absolutely no say in the governance of their city?

I'd be okay with stripping out the residential sections of DC and reincorporating them into the state they original were a part of.

 

[valkyrie013]

Make them citizens of Maryland.. Next.