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Andorian secession and Brexit

Charles Phipps

Charles Phipps

Rear Admiral
Rear Admiral
I only read Paths of Disharmony today and it's fascinating to think of this book in lieu of Brexit. I wonder if Andoria has an equivalent of Boris Johnson and just how difficult it really did turn out to remove Andoria from the government they founded and all of the little things that would be hugely important yet taken for granted by the people--especially in a environmental crisis.

I always love re-visiting Star Trek in lieu of current events. One of the weaker episodes of TNG for me was "Symbiosis" as I felt it was lecturing on the War on Drugs. Except, now that I live in Kentucky where the pharmaceutical companies have actually sold highly addictive opioids for the purposes of making a profit under the guise of medicine--well, it hits much much harder.

Was there ever a follow up to the Andorian secession? I'm trying to find out.
 
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I honestly hope that the Andorian secession did turn into an enormous cluster****. As we see with certain real life events, peaceful secession is a lot harder than it seems and I don't think we need to think of it as a terribly sympathetic choice by the Andorians since it was triggered by Russian int...err Tholian interference and nationalist isolationist sentiment. Certainly, in the midst of a massive refugee crisis (Risa, Betazoid), it's also something where Star Trek has always pulled together than apart.

Seeing the Andorian economy and rebuilding efforts tank because of it wouldn't be satisfying but it would be a logical outcome.
 
Funny that I'm seeing this topic now, as I'm re-reading The Fall series currently.

Two things I think should be pointed out:
1. Before being too hard on the Andorians, one should consider that they were facing the literal extinction of their people.
2.
The Federation puts an embargo on Andor that includes medical supplies. Given point #1, that just seems incredibly heartless.
 
DonIago said:
Funny that I'm seeing this topic now, as I'm re-reading The Fall series currently.

Two things I think should be pointed out:
1. Before being too hard on the Andorians, one should consider that they were facing the literal extinction of their people.
2.
The Federation puts an embargo on Andor that includes medical supplies. Given point #1, that just seems incredibly heartless.
Click to expand...
Re: the spoiler note -- Yes, it was. It was almost as if a democratic society that should have known better got manipulated into handing over power to a dangerous, narcissistic con man. But that could never happen, right?
 
I feel like the Andorians are reacting in a believable manner but the believable manner is irrational, angry, and looking for someone to blame that leads them to make an incredibly stupid decision. The Federation had the Meta-Genome but that's a bit like discovering the Ark of the Covenant in a warehouse.

While Paths of Disharmony is very pro-genetic engineering, its illegal in the Federation and as we see with Project: Genesis and Vanguard, the attempts to use the Meta-Genome are horrifying. Star Trek is a show that has a lot of episodes show that you can often stumble on stuff you do not understand it will kill everyone. It's a bit like living in the Cthulhu Mythos except humans are the Elder Things or Yith. Small fish but reasonably competent.

The thing is, the Meta-Genome was in a box somewhere and the Federation was trying to help with proven technology. So, the Andorians are basically lashing out at something that is in no way the fault of the Federation. They also align politically with a group of terrorists and isolationists who have formed a unstable political block. Doubly ironic given the terrorists don't want genetic engineering at all but use the other people's complaint about not ENOUGH genetic engineering to push forward Fexit.

So, the planet in its population crisis and with so much damage done to their systems they're using COAL PLANTS (albeit I'm going to assume that's some magic super-coal because why not) to keep the lights on-- now is the time to divorce yourself from the alliance that allowed you to survive the cyber-apocalypse to begin with.

Honestly, were I the Federation, I wouldn't feel the need to punish Andor but I would move them to the BOTTOM of every list of humanitarian aid I'd assembled. Opting out of the Federation at this time doesn't just affect the Andorians--it effects all the Federation's strategic alliances, their economy, and probably upends hundreds of thousands of lives. You know, as we're seeing with certain other secession matters. Will it effect the Vulcan/Andorian treaty? Maybe. I mean, now there's an independent power seeking greater friendship with the Tholians right on the Vulcan border--and the Tholians are assholes.

It's not like other Federation worlds aren't equally in need. Give the Risans all the attention the Andorians were going to get. I'd also be hesitant to form any new agreements with the Andorians.

So yeah, I'm actually really interested in how this turned out for them but the thing with Trek EU is that's not a question easily answered sometimes given the breadth of the Novelverse (or even if it is ever answered).
 
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Charles Phipps said:
I honestly hope that the Andorian secession did turn into an enormous cluster****. As we see with certain real life events, peaceful secession is a lot harder than it seems and I don't think we need to think of it as a terribly sympathetic choice by the Andorians since it was triggered by Russian int...err Tholian interference and nationalist isolationist sentiment. Certainly, in the midst of a massive refugee crisis (Risa, Betazoid), it's also something where Star Trek has always pulled together than apart.

Seeing the Andorian economy and rebuilding efforts tank because of it wouldn't be satisfying but it would be a logical outcome.
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If you wanted to draw another analogy, you could make a point about the Arkenites living on Alonis colony. Formerly imperial subjects, the Arkenites gained independence. But the Arkenites living on Alonis colony, within the Andorian/Procyon system, remained Andorian by culture.

Now imagine these Arkenites being unwilling to lose their Federation citizenship, but being romped along for the ride into great Andorian Imperial independence?
 
Markonian said:
If you wanted to draw another analogy, you could make a point about the Arkenites living on Alonis colony. Formerly imperial subjects, the Arkenites gained independence. But the Arkenites living on Alonis colony, within the Andorian/Procyon system, remained Andorian by culture.

Now imagine these Arkenites being unwilling to lose their Federation citizenship, but being romped along for the ride into great Andorian Imperial independence?
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You're right. The idea is presumably the Andorians expect to have the Andorian Empire resume its existence from Admiral Archer's time but demographics are going to have hugely changed culturally and economically. Whether you agree or disagree with a majority of every Andorian worlds' Andorian populace having a majority favor seceding, some might have substantial non-Andorian populations that now identify more as Federation citizens than Andorian Imperial.

Star Trek timescales for the Federation are more akin to 21st century ones in terms of social changes so it'd be the equivalent of asking people to go back to British citizens in Australia or America.

Are D'Vosh and T'Lyn the Vulcan storekeepers going to have dual citizenship? Become foreign workers? Have to choose? In an idealistic Federation, that'd be easy but the problem is the current leadership of Andor is an alliance of un-idealistic jackasses elected on public outrage (including a terrorist group).

Paths of Disharmony had the ambassador think a smooth and easy transition would be best to eventually rejoin the Federation but stripping X amount of citizens of their free right of travel (which is going to happen no matter what just because of security concerns) let alone questions of whatever rights/benefits they have as Feddie citizens during the Borg Crisis aftermath is going to make huge unrest no matter what.

I'm now imagining an equivalent to Theresa May doing their best to make it work smoothly only to find the people elected want nothing to be smooth about it against people who hate the whole thing.
 
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Charles Phipps said:
I feel like the Andorians are reacting in a believable manner but the believable manner is irrational, angry, and looking for someone to blame that leads them to make an incredibly stupid decision. The Federation had the Meta-Genome but that's a bit like discovering the Ark of the Covenant in a warehouse.

While Paths of Disharmony is very pro-genetic engineering, its illegal in the Federation and as we see with Project: Genesis and Vanguard, the attempts to use the Meta-Genome are horrifying. Star Trek is a show that has a lot of episodes show that you can often stumble on stuff you do not understand it will kill everyone. It's a bit like living in the Cthulhu Mythos except humans are the Elder Things or Yith. Small fish but reasonably competent.

The thing is, the Meta-Genome was in a box somewhere and the Federation was trying to help with proven technology. So, the Andorians are basically lashing out at something that is in no way the fault of the Federation. They also align politically with a group of terrorists and isolationists who have formed a unstable political block. Doubly ironic given the terrorists don't want genetic engineering at all but use the other people's complaint about not ENOUGH genetic engineering to push forward Fexit.

So, the planet in its population crisis and with so much damage done to their systems they're using COAL PLANTS (albeit I'm going to assume that's some magic super-coal because why not) to keep the lights on-- now is the time to divorce yourself from the alliance that allowed you to survive the cyber-apocalypse to begin with.

Honestly, were I the Federation, I wouldn't feel the need to punish Andor but I would move them to the BOTTOM of every list of humanitarian aid I'd assembled. Opting out of the Federation at this time doesn't just affect the Andorians--it effects all the Federation's strategic alliances, their economy, and probably upends hundreds of thousands of lives. You know, as we're seeing with certain other secession matters. Will it effect the Vulcan/Andorian treaty? Maybe. I mean, now there's an independent power seeking greater friendship with the Tholians right on the Vulcan border--and the Tholians are assholes.

It's not like other Federation worlds aren't equally in need. Give the Risans all the attention the Andorians were going to get. I'd also be hesitant to form any new agreements with the Andorians.

So yeah, I'm actually really interested in how this turned out for them but the thing with Trek EU is that's not a question easily answered sometimes given the breadth of the Novelverse (or even if it is ever answered).
Click to expand...

I'm not exactly sure I'm following some of the events you're referring to in your post, which may impact the below.

Hot-bloodedness is basically established as a common Andorian trait, so that they'd react as they did is...not exactly out of character? You've got the Tholians on the one hand offering them potential help, and on the other it's revealed that the Federation had access to the same potential help but chose not to share it. Throw in the fact that their government was apparently pretty fractious at the time, and...there you go.

It's a shame that AFAIK we don't have any window into whether there was any debate on the Federation side as to whether to share the meta-genome data with the Andorians before the Tholians beat them to the punch.

I'll reiterate that the Andorians were looking at crossing the event horizon into extinction in the next year (by Shar's reckoning), before saying that I think they deserve compassion, not scorn, for having made bad decisions. Yes, there were a lot of other Federation citizens dealing with a lot of hardship in the aftermath of the Borg attack, but as far as I'm aware none of them were looking at that level of immediate and irrevocable catastrophe. When you're looking at the death of your people, someone else's economic upheaval likely seems pretty irrelevant by comparison.

I mean, let's look at this in contemporary terms: If we discovered that any nation on the planet had developed a possible cure for cancer and chose not to share their research because "oh, there may be dangerous side-effects"...do we really think that other nations would just shrug and say "Oh, well, that makes total sense then!" On the contrary, I suspect that nation would be vilified.
 
DonIago said:
I'm not exactly sure I'm following some of the events you're referring to in your post, which may impact the below.

Hot-bloodedness is basically established as a common Andorian trait, so that they'd react as they did is...not exactly out of character? You've got the Tholians on the one hand offering them potential help, and on the other it's revealed that the Federation had access to the same potential help but chose not to share it. Throw in the fact that their government was apparently pretty fractious at the time, and...there you go.

It's a shame that AFAIK we don't have any window into whether there was any debate on the Federation side as to whether to share the meta-genome data with the Andorians before the Tholians beat them to the punch.

I'll reiterate that the Andorians were looking at crossing the event horizon into extinction in the next year (by Shar's reckoning), before saying that I think they deserve compassion, not scorn, for having made bad decisions. Yes, there were a lot of other Federation citizens dealing with a lot of hardship in the aftermath of the Borg attack, but as far as I'm aware none of them were looking at that level of immediate and irrevocable catastrophe. When you're looking at the death of your people, someone else's economic upheaval likely seems pretty irrelevant by comparison.

I mean, let's look at this in contemporary terms: If we discovered that any nation on the planet had developed a possible cure for cancer and chose not to share their research because "oh, there may be dangerous side-effects"...do we really think that other nations would just shrug and say "Oh, well, that makes total sense then!" On the contrary, I suspect that nation would be vilified.
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I said the Andorians' response was entirely believable. Stupid but believable. I said it's like discovering the Ark of the Covenant or the Holy Grail in the Warehouse from Raiders of the Lost Ark. No one knows it's there and it's a miracle that has been found with all the people who hid it there being long dead. Blaming the "Federation" for this is kind of ridiculous.

Doubly so when we find out it's a Holy Grail that turned out to have caused the creation of a zombie apocalypse (Project: Genesis) and was the subject of the Tholians and Shedai threatening the end of everything. So, less the Holy Grail and maybe more the Necronomicon.

The people of the 23rd century didn't know how to control the Meta-Genome and its arguable the people of the 24th century still don't. It's very much technology so beyond the Federation that it's the equivalent of finding a nuke when you're cave men. The Andorians might believe it's the solution to all their problems but that's a big if by itself. If this is TNG, they'd try to use it and then it would unleash giant alien bats that would devour all of Andor like in "Unnatural Selection."

https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Recap/StarTrekTheNextGenerationS2E7UnnaturalSelection

It's illegal technology anyway, like using proto-matter because genetic engineering is illegal in the Federation. Transhumanists hate this element of Star Trek but it's there. Because of things like the Augment Virus, Unnatural Selection, and other horrible consequences. It also gets bizarre as the Andorians keep reacting like the Federation is a hostile foreign government when the decision to table the Shedai Meta-Genome would have been made by the government the Andorians were a part of (admittedly when their crisis wasn't nearly as bad).
 
I wouldn't think of it as a Brexit .. Brexit happened because you have a load of mostly un elected people doing policy in Brussels, Think of the american revolution, no taxation without representation, and most ( or a good chunk) of England said Screw that..
Andoria split because you had elements on both sides playing hard ball, Had a loud minority that were upset that the Feds weren't helping as much as they could, and when the Meta Genome poped up, they said Screw you, your not going to help us? were' done. But then had the Asshat feddy president and the asshat andorian president that either didn't want to give the cure, or wanted it to be them that provided the cure..
 
valkyrie013 said:
I wouldn't think of it as a Brexit .. Brexit happened because you have a load of mostly un elected people doing policy in Brussels, Think of the american revolution, no taxation without representation, and most ( or a good chunk) of England said Screw that..
Andoria split because you had elements on both sides playing hard ball, Had a loud minority that were upset that the Feds weren't helping as much as they could, and when the Meta Genome poped up, they said Screw you, your not going to help us? were' done. But then had the Asshat feddy president and the asshat andorian president that either didn't want to give the cure, or wanted it to be them that provided the cure..
Click to expand...

Ehhh, Bacco never knew the Meta-Genome existed and the scientist who DID never mentioned it to the Federation.

The scientist learned from the Tholians.

It's basically blaming the USA for not sharing nuclear secrets after they learn them from Russia.
 
Charles Phipps said:
Ehhh, Bacco never knew the Meta-Genome existed and the scientist who DID never mentioned it to the Federation.

The scientist learned from the Tholians.

It's basically blaming the USA for not sharing nuclear secrets after they learn them from Russia.
Click to expand...

No, because the Federation and Starfleet did know about the Meta-Genome in the 2260s, at the time of the Vanguard series, and the government classified it. So there must have been people in the UFP government who had known about it all along, and nobody was willing to declassify it to help save the Andorians.
 
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