Case dismissed! Discovery and Tardigrade game "not similar"

[Krandor]

Well that makes no bloody sense. No game so he had nothing to complain about.

Not completely true. If I create the outline for a book and post it on a blog and somebody takes that outline and uses it to write their own book from it that would still be infringement even if I hadn't written the full book yet because that published outline is still copyrighted.

However I can't (and abdin did this as well) claim that you stole things I planned to do in the book that were not in that outline because they were not available to see.

And I think that last point is one of the things that upset Abdin. He knew the arc he had planned for so and so character was something that appeared similar to discovery but if he never published it on his blogs, etc there was nothing to steal since it hasn't been published yet in a form that could be stolen.

 

[Noname Given]

I always love it when the CBS fanboy folks attack me for being an Abdin supporter/anti-DIS, and the Abdin-supporter/anti-CBS crowd attacks me for being a pro-CBS shill. Because quite obviously there is no possibility other than to be firmly in one camp... That always shows how much thought effort actually went into the post.

It's NOT because you support the guy, it's because you DON'T seem to understand how the U.S. legal system works.

In the majority of your posts you believe it's up to CBS to prove it didn't do what Abdin claims it did.
^^^^
That's NOT how the U.S. Civil law system works. To prevail, Abdin HAS TO HAVE HARD/VERIFIABLE EVIDENCE that PROVES CBS did what he claims. CBS DOESN'T have to present anything until Abdin shows such evidence to a Judge, the Judge agrees said evidence is viable; then teh case proceeds to what is know as 'Discovery'; and THAT'S when CBS has to present evidence that refutes Abdins's evidence <--- and BOTH SIDES then present that to a Judge/Jury, depending on how the parties agree to proceed.

The case NEVER got that far because Abdin was NOT ABLE to provide any real evidence that supported his claim. Also, the Judge looked at ALL his claims and made a ruling, niot just using her own judgement, but ALSO CITING CASE LAW (IE other cases that had been ruled on BY HIGHER COURTS that support her own judgement to dismiss this case.

She didn't just make a simple/snap judgement here, she made a judgement that is supported BY CASE LAW.

In the end, that's why Abdin did not prevail, and the ultimate judgement was CAREFULLY CONSIDERED and RESEARCHED and was SUPPORTED BY OTHER CASE JUDGEMENTS (again, the term is 'case law'); so no, it wasn't just one person alone making a quick judgement in this case. Adbin got his full day in court, was given ample time to gather and present any evidence beyond his claim (he didn't) - and the Judge fully looked at and research case law, and judged that a dismissal (requested by CBS) was warranted because under the law, the elements that could be considered similar are not things that are unique enough to be protected under copyright; (and Abdin failed to provide any real hard evidence that shows the people contracted to create Discovery ever saw his game/proposal/whateveter and used it as a basis to create 'Star Trek Discovery.)

 

[Tuskin38]

That wasn't the first time the timeline had been explained to him (or even the fifth), it was just the first time he actually acknowledged it. And the quoted post is 100% accurate in saying that he has, from the start all the way to now, insisted on upholding Abdin's claims of 'similarity' without ever being able to describe, let alone even attempt to prove, why exactly any of these things should even be considered significantly similar.

That doesn't mean he moved goalposts, and I don't see how what you responded to says otherwise. It does mean his attempt to portray himself as perfectly balanced and catching flak from 'both sides' is obviously ridiculous.

I disagree completely.

 

[serabine]

Not completely true. If I create the outline for a book and post it on a blog and somebody takes that outline and uses it to write their own book from it that would still be infringement even if I hadn't written the full book yet because that published outline is still copyrighted.

However I can't (and abdin did this as well) claim that you stole things I planned to do in the book that were not in that outline because they were not available to see.

And I think that last point is one of the things that upset Abdin. He knew the arc he had planned for so and so character was something that appeared similar to discovery but if he never published it on his blogs, etc there was nothing to steal since it hasn't been published yet in a form that could be stolen.

eeeehhhh. Since only the specific expression of an idea is copyrightable, I'm really not sure if something unfinished and mutable like an outline (as in something that is very likely to change with the actual writing of the work proper) falls under that umbrella. You could give two people the same outline, but the books they write are likely to be similar, but not even remotely identical.That's why ideas aren't copyrightable, only what you make of them.

 

[Krandor]

eeeehhhh. Since only the specific expression of an idea is copyrightable, I'm really not sure if something unfinished and mutable like an outline (as in something that is very likely to change with the actual writing of the work proper) falls under that umbrella. You could give two people the same outline, but the books they write are likely to be similar, but not even remotely identical.That's why ideas aren't copyrightable, only what you make of them.

An 0utline is an expression of the idea and would qualify though clearly the more detail in that the better to make it clear that what somebody else does is exactly from your work (back to Abin - just having a PoC with black hair wouldn't be enough but a PoC with black hair who is an astronomer who came from the planet vulcan but was raised on early could be if all those specifics where there.

I've seen suggestions to screenwriters to take an area for a movie for example which could be hundreds of pages of script and initally do like a 3-5 page version of all the key concepts from your idea in as much detail as possible in order to get some copyright on the idea being yours since an idea gives no protection but an expression of the idea does.

It is definitely an area with a lot of grey areas as to when you cross the line and don't.

As a result a lot of writers go out of their way not to be exposed to things that they could be potentially sued about later. Best example I can rememebr is back when B5 was on JMS was active on usenet and they actually set up a separate newgroup just for JMS to read and post in and the mods would delete messages that had anything in them that could be considered a story idea/speculation to insulate JMS from seeing them and creating any possibility of an issue.

 

[Spot261]

Ah! The good old attempt at sounding reasonable by using fancy words. "Moving goalposts".

Hey look, I can do the same:

• Ad hominem attack!
  
• Appeal to authority!
• False dichotomy!
  
• Strawman argument!
• Hasty generalization!

All fallacies you yourself have used in just one single paragraph. Amazing.

Especially since everything you just said could have been summarized as: TL, DR

Because you quite obviously didn't. You just glanced over this discussion, knew you'd disagree with me, and wrote something, even though you quite obviously never actually got where and why you actually disagree with me.

I always love it when the CBS fanboy folks attack me for being an Abdin supporter/anti-DIS, and the Abdin-supporter/anti-CBS crowd attacks me for being a pro-CBS shill. Because quite obviously there is no possibility other than to be firmly in one camp... That always shows how much thought effort actually went into the post.

I know you would prefer to just shut this thread down entirely, because somehow "disagreement on fundamental details" is somehow too nuanced and frowned upon on message board nowadays. But this thread wouldn't have been going on for 100+ pages if the answer would have been as reductively simple as you try to make it.

cheers.

The issue is reductively simple and it was a judge who made that decision, not someone on an internet forum.

Abdin could not demonstrate a credible case in an impartial court of law that CBS had in any way taken from his ideas.

That's it.

It's binary, it's simple and it's done.

 

[DaveyNY]

The issue is reductively simple and it was a judge who made that decision, not someone on an internet forum.

Abdin could not demonstrate a credible case in an impartial court of law that CBS had in any way taken from his ideas.

That's it.

It's binary, it's simple and it's done.

It may be simple Binary... but to some more petulant folks, there's a lot of space between that 1 and 0.

 

[Spot261]

It may be simple Binary... but to some more petulant folks, there's a lot of space between that 1 and 0.

 

[Rahul]

I find it exceedingly difficult to blieve that any Abdin supporters attacked you. When you came into this thread you were adamant about Ripper being a ripoff of Abdin's work. In post after asinine post, you doggedly argued that Abdin deserved to win the case. You created your own law in support of the notion in order to justify your position. It was ridiculous. Poster after poster painstakingly explained to you why you were objectively wrong about the two characters being significantly similar, but you just kept going with the 'Abdin was wronged' show.

So, you trying to now portray yourself as someone who was so objective that both sides attacked you makes no sense.

Rubish.
These two ARE super similar. The "painstakenly" taken arguments were "Ripper's not even blue" (except when he is), and "it's just generic", because, y'know, more than one SF show has a human-sized, sparkling Tardigrade as a means for FTL-transportation....

What did convince me was @Campe98 's excellently researched post, where he actually did the work and researched the timeline and proved that - while Abdin was the first to go to public with the character in his trailer - CBS was already deep in post-production of it's own Tardigrade episodes - and thus couldn't have stolen anything.

I have cited this post at least a dozen times here already, mostly to other "Abdin supporters" (aka the "camp" you still react like I'm a part of) - who, like me, saw the similarities on first sight, but weren't familiar with the exact production timeline of each the game and DIS compared to each other.

This one:

Abdin never once released a video showing the Tardigrade’s FTL ability until July 2017. There was no evidence that this method of travel was in his game design and setup until this time. At that point, Star Trek Discovery’s fifteen episode first season had been in production for six months, not to mention the fifteen months since the show started development with Fuller at the helm. Likely, by the time that Abdin’s video had been released, the series was well into at least shooting Episode 10, the writing for the season was done and effects work had to at least be completed on Episode 3 or 4, and in the early stages up to Episode 6 or 7 which meant Ripper had been in the works for awhile. In fact, digging through the TrekCore archives, I was able to find this:

On July 25, 2017 Jonathan Frakes was working on episode 10 of season 1, "Despite Yourself." That is thirteen days after the first appearance of the Tardigrade hug from Abdin's game. The Discovery production had left Ripper behind and was in the mirror universe. The design of the Tardigrade had to be much earlier based on this photo (which unfortunately is undated) from earlier in the season.

There is no evidence of man-sized Tardigrades prior to that July 12th video in any of Abdin's work. Believe me, I spent more time than I should have digging through his website last night. The more evidence I'm able to drum up, the more I am convinced that this is just two things that developed around the same time. Nothing more. Nothing less.



Now, too be fair, in my research, Abdin's videos from as early as 2014 show blue uniforms. Along with green ones. Black ones. And purple ones. But I still think there's a certain amount of this...

in this...

And if I was going to be completely honest, this...

is a lot closer than the first one than the second.

And which one came first? Hmmmmmm.....

But make no mistake - I still do think the two are largely similar to the point of confusion. It's just that this proves it really was an unlikely freak coincidence.

That's why I cited this post so much.
Because without it - I can absolutely see anybody (like me before) jumping to different conclusions.

And this is also why I - while completely agreeing with the dismissal of the case - think "no substantial similarity" is a weak justification given, and not as strong an argument as "we checked the timeline, and there was definitely no ripping off going on".

 

[Grendelsbayne]

Ripper isn't blue, period. Pointing to (a minority of) scenes where he is seen in blue light (along with *everything else in the scene*) does not make him blue. He also doesn't look like Abdin's tardigrade at all beyond the basic shape. He is vastly larger than Abdin's and the lines and details between the two of them share about as much 'similarity' as the characters of Rattatouille share with actual live rats. Abdin's tardigrade also still doesn't function as 'ftl transportation' in any way that is meaningfully comparable to Ripper. It's a biological transporter, Ripper is an alien navigator. You might as well complain that Stargate was a Trek ripoff because 'Stargates are just like warp drive'.

 

[serabine]

Rubish.
These two ARE super similar. The "painstakenly" taken arguments were "Ripper's not even blue" (except when he is), and "it's just generic", because, y'know, more than one SF show has a human-sized, sparkling Tardigrade as a means for FTL-transportation....

Ripper. Ain't. Blue. There is no "except when he is". The tardigrade in Abdin's animation is naturally blue, which we know because it's depicted next to a human character allowing us to see that it's seen in neutral, natural lighting. When Ripper is in neutral, non-tinted lighting he is muddish brown. He has a blue tint and shine when in blue ambient lighting, because that's how ambient lighting works. Ever been in a darkroom for developing photos? They have red light bulbs, so everything you see in the room will be tinted red. That doesn't make the white t-shirt you wore in the darkroom "similar" in color to somebody else's actually red t-shirt. If you put Ripper in red ambient lighting he would look red-ish, green-ish in green lighting, yellow-ish in yellow lighting, and I'm sure you can figure the pattern out from here. It's quite weird that you think the judge should have ignored the difference lighting makes to something's appearance instead of looking at it neutrally.

You keep referring to Ripper as a means for faster than light travel when the show even explains that that's not what's happening. Ripper, a huge (welcome to sci fi, where we have a long history of making tiny animals giant) distant cousin to earth's tardigrades (real life animal with natural association to space due to its ability to survive there) can, via horizontal gene transfer (something scientists thought tardigrades could actually do until it was debunked in further research), interact with the mycelial network (sci fi version of real life thing) and use it as a shortcut through a specific plane of subspace (preexisting Star Trek concept with long franchise history) by utilizing it's ability to almost instantaneously transfer information due to quantum entanglement (real life fancy physics thing). Humans can utilize this ability to successfully travel through the network itself (remember they can travel in the mycelium already at the start of the show, they just can't steer correctly for longer jumps) by using Ripper and later Stamets (hello again vertical gene transfer) as living navigational computers (Dune say's hi!). And please note that it's specifically referred as jumps in the show, so no actual travelling at faster than light speeds ever takes place.

You claim undeniable similarity to Abdin's tardigrade, who's big, and can facilitate space travel for humans. Somehow. That's the level of depth we're given as an indication how it works in the game. Probably because the game doesn't actually exist yet, and that's pretty much how far he's gotten. And am I really the only one who always had the nagging feeling that the animation Abdin made was originally supposed to be symbolic or a dream sequence instead of how the tardigrade would actually work for space travel when the game proper was finished (since Carter is butt-naked in the unforgiving, inhospitable environment of space while completely unbothered by the complete lack of life support) and that the clip only later was claimed to be a literal interpretation to support the claim of theft? But because Discovery has 1 (one) shot of a big tardigrade re-hydrating in blue ambient lighting in space before disappearing in an effect not dissimilar to warp on Star Trek shows, that somehow counts as similar to Abdin's 1 (one) shot of a giant blue tardigrade hugging a guy who goes from in a space suit to naked, then "digitized" or something before completely enveloped, before we are treated to the tardigrade slowly paddling away into space with it's stout little legs, presumably with the guy still inside it (at least that is what the Kuleshov effect suggests).

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Like, how is that actually all that similar?

 

[Tuskin38]

I wish I could just take your post and show it to every skeptic in the world.

At least the ones who aren’t believing it just because they dislike Discovery. Nothing could change their minds.

 

[Spot261]

Rubish.
These two ARE super similar. The "painstakenly" taken arguments were "Ripper's not even blue" (except when he is), and "it's just generic", because, y'know, more than one SF show has a human-sized, sparkling Tardigrade as a means for FTL-transportation....

What did convince me was @Campe98 's excellently researched post, where he actually did the work and researched the timeline and proved that - while Abdin was the first to go to public with the character in his trailer - CBS was already deep in post-production of it's own Tardigrade episodes - and thus couldn't have stolen anything.

I have cited this post at least a dozen times here already, mostly to other "Abdin supporters" (aka the "camp" you still react like I'm a part of) - who, like me, saw the similarities on first sight, but weren't familiar with the exact production timeline of each the game and DIS compared to each other.

This one:


But make no mistake - I still do think the two are largely similar to the point of confusion. It's just that this proves it really was an unlikely freak coincidence.

That's why I cited this post so much.
Because without it - I can absolutely see anybody (like me before) jumping to different conclusions.

And this is also why I - while completely agreeing with the dismissal of the case - think "no substantial similarity" is a weak justification given, and not as strong an argument as "we checked the timeline, and there was definitely no ripping off going on".

Yet "no substantial similarity" is the legal criteria here. Timelines could indeed have been used effectively to cast doubt but where the case rests on an established litmus test that is what the court will judge it on. I've no doubt the judge will not only have been aware of the facts but been in possession of more than we are. It was their call to make and they did so on the basis of the legal criteria.

That criteria didn't require a breakdown of the timeline, or if it did the fact was certainly downplayed in the verdict. What it did require was a sober assessment of the similarities without prejudice and the outcome was quite a clear decision against Abdin.

 

[Jackson_Roykirk]

Ripper isn't blue, period. Pointing to (a minority of) scenes where he is seen in blue light (along with *everything else in the scene*) does not make him blue. He also doesn't look like Abdin's tardigrade at all beyond the basic shape. He is vastly larger than Abdin's and the lines and details between the two of them share about as much 'similarity' as the characters of Rattatouille share with actual live rats. Abdin's tardigrade also still doesn't function as 'ftl transportation' in any way that is meaningfully comparable to Ripper. It's a biological transporter, Ripper is an alien navigator. You might as well complain that Stargate was a Trek ripoff because 'Stargates are just like warp drive'.

Ripper, apparently, is also a Professor at Cambridge . I was watching "All good Things" last night and noticed this line from Data:

Data (to his housekeeper): Jessel, ask Professor Ripper to take over my lecture for tomorrow. Possibly for the rest of the week.
​

 

[fireproof78]

Ripper, apparently, is also a Professor at Cambridge . I was watching "All good Things" last night and noticed this line from Data:

Data (to his housekeeper): Jessel, ask Professor Ripper to take over my lecture for tomorrow. Possibly for the rest of the week.

It's nice to know Ripper found his true calling.

 

[Locutus of Bored]

Alright, everyone has had their chance to weigh in on this dog of a thread, so we're done here. Thank Tardigrade Jesus.