Pike in Through the Valley of the Shadows

[MrShinzoff]

Hi everyone, this is my first post and it is about terminal illness.

Captain Pike's vision of the future in Through the Valley... is something that I've thought about a lot. I have also recently had occasion to think about terminal illness (not me) and it strikes me that you could interpret what Pike experienced as a diagnosis of terminal illness (albeit without the physical deterioation).

Can I ask how other people thought of this particular scene and its aftermath and how it reasonated? I thought the scene was needed to bring Pike up to the same level of awareness as the audience but I genuinely think it's one of the best and most thought provoking scenes I've watched in Star Trek.

An argument I've heard against a Pike series is the problem that he would be more or less invincible until he meets his fate. But I think if it was treated as a kind of terminal diagnosis then it would help to create a really interesting character study involving an emotionally complex subject (like Breaking Bad in a totally different direction). And interesting set-ups; for example, Pike could meet a woman who wanted to start a family with him. The show could explore the concept of free will (like him being tempted to leave Starfleet even though he knew he wouldn't be able to help the Cadets).

 

[Vger23]

I think it was one of the best scenes in Season 2...and it really hit home because of how much we, as the audience, had grown to like and respect Pike through the prior episodes. I think it adds tremendous depth to his character, knowing that this is ultimately his fate, and he has to make that difficult choice to "lock in."

Very good stuff....and I agree with you that this does not detract from the possibility of an ongoing Pike series. We all knew that Kirk wasn't going to die, and that still worked out ok!

 

[NewHeavensNewEarth]

Welcome to the board! I agree that Pike's "fate" shouldn't determine whether a series should be launched. With the real-life news of Eisenberg passing (who played Nog on DS9), I'm reminded of the interviews where he said that war veterans approached him and told him that his character portrayal of handling amputation was an inspiration to them, and I think Pike could also inspire others to face the toughest adversities head-on.

 

[Locutus of Bored]

Welcome to the board and to the Disco Forum, MrShinzoff. That's a quality first post and a funny user name to boot.

Pike's revelation about his future was a poignant and insightful scene and one of the best of the series. I've had declining health myself so it definitely resonated with me.

I agree with you that knowing a character won't die during a series because we've seen their future does not necessarily have to sap from the drama of the character's arc. It's not something I'd want all the time, but it's not impossible to overcome either. Plenty of interesting stories have been made of historical figures who we know are going to survive from point A to point B, but still have a lot to offer in between.

 

[NewHeavensNewEarth]

I've had declining health myself so it definitely resonated with me.

Sorry to hear that! Feel better soon!

 

[Charles Phipps]

I think it was a potent scene because it is him taking it like a man.

"I am going to be horribly maimed if I take this time crystal. One life for trillions. Bargain."

Tyler and L'Rell's son is sincere in his respect for a reason. He handled it in a very Klingon way.

 

[F. King Daniel]

An argument I've heard against a Pike series is the problem that he would be more or less invincible until he meets his fate.

See I think that would be the basis of Pike's arc in such a series. They tease it in the last episode of season 2, where Pike says if he is the one to stay with the bomb it must be a dud because he's seen his future. I can see a show playing with that, and driving Pike more and more to the brink, testing his fate until he does something utterly insane and endangers everyone (knowing by now of course that it'll be okay)... resulting in him being grounded and made an academy instructor, which is exactly what he was doing when the accident occurred.

Like a weird Trek version of Final Destination.

 

[Rainard Fox]

Can I ask how other people thought of this particular scene and its aftermath and how it reasonated? I thought the scene was needed to bring Pike up to the same level of awareness as the audience but I genuinely think it's one of the best and most thought provoking scenes I've watched in Star Trek.

This scene impressed me in my own personal way. I suffered from compulsive self-harm about forty years, and stopped it this day. That's what I mean when say Pike is more than "just another fictional character" to me.

 

[Mutai Sho-Rin]

Sounded like a fantasy crossover with Babylon 5.

 

[Bad Thoughts]

An argument I've heard against a Pike series is the problem that he would be more or less invincible until he meets his fate. But I think if it was treated as a kind of terminal diagnosis then it would help to create a really interesting character study involving an emotionally complex subject (like Breaking Bad in a totally different direction). And interesting set-ups; for example, Pike could meet a woman who wanted to start a family with him. The show could explore the concept of free will (like him being tempted to leave Starfleet even though he knew he wouldn't be able to help the Cadets).

I agree that there are definitely ideas to be mined from a character that knows something of his fate. I do think that the skepticism is a little overblown. I know that more than a few people, even on this forum, feel that something is not worth seeing (or reading, for the matter) if the ending is known. I don't agree with this sentiment. Above that, I think that the events in the season finale still make it seem like there are many elements of that fate that need interpretation, and that choices must still be made: Admiral Cornwell calls BS on Pike's notion that he can use his "fate" to prevent the bomb from destroying the ship; Spock convinces Burnham that the events she is witnessing are not the failure of her efforts. Even if "the race is not to the swift ...," there are still reasons to apply oneself.

On top of that, the show need not be focused on Pike's story. Ansom Mount was great at being a central focus, but highlighting the growth of the characters around him. Maybe they will focus on Pike's development, but I expect that any new Enterprise series would be at least equally the story of "young Spock."

 

[serabine]

An argument I've heard against a Pike series is the problem that he would be more or less invincible until he meets his fate. But I think if it was treated as a kind of terminal diagnosis then it would help to create a really interesting character study involving an emotionally complex subject (like Breaking Bad in a totally different direction). And interesting set-ups; for example, Pike could meet a woman who wanted to start a family with him. The show could explore the concept of free will (like him being tempted to leave Starfleet even though he knew he wouldn't be able to help the Cadets).

There's also the question why the drama must come from whether the character might die or not. He's a Starfleet captain tasked with five year missions to parts unknown and responsible for hundreds of crew members. There's so much potential for drama, like the very real danger that any given first contact goes horribly wrong (think humans and Mimbari in B5 who got into a terrible war because of a cultural misunderstanding during first contact), or races against time to aid ships or planets, hard decisions that might mean sacrificing crew members for the greater good (and given how Pike was shown to be almost terminally no-man-left-behind this would be the drama), tense negotiations with hostile species, etc etc.

I'm reminded of a post I saw ages ago on another forum where someone complained about a creative writing assignment with the stipulation that no one in the story should die, be in danger of dying, or should have recently died. Basically, the assignment asked to skip using death as a relatively easy way to drum up drama and find other ways to create it. Knowing Pike's fate is basically the same thing: we know where his story ends, so what other forms of conflict can we find?

 

[XCV330]

Hi everyone, this is my first post and it is about terminal illness.

Captain Pike's vision of the future in Through the Valley... is something that I've thought about a lot. I have also recently had occasion to think about terminal illness (not me) and it strikes me that you could interpret what Pike experienced as a diagnosis of terminal illness (albeit without the physical deterioation).

Can I ask how other people thought of this particular scene and its aftermath and how it reasonated? I thought the scene was needed to bring Pike up to the same level of awareness as the audience but I genuinely think it's one of the best and most thought provoking scenes I've watched in Star Trek.

An argument I've heard against a Pike series is the problem that he would be more or less invincible until he meets his fate. But I think if it was treated as a kind of terminal diagnosis then it would help to create a really interesting character study involving an emotionally complex subject (like Breaking Bad in a totally different direction). And interesting set-ups; for example, Pike could meet a woman who wanted to start a family with him. The show could explore the concept of free will (like him being tempted to leave Starfleet even though he knew he wouldn't be able to help the Cadets).

Pike was given the choice of doing what he knew to be right and beneficial to others, or fleeing the responsibility and avoiding a particularly dire fate.

We all live under a death sentence. Sometimes long term. Some times we know we don't have as much time as we would like, already. If he'd not taken the crystal, maybe he would have had a fuller, less painful exitence. Or maybe something even worse would happen. He had enough courage and moral fiber to do the right thing, regardless. He stuck to his original goal, and yes to a degree his reward is a kind of freedom. We all face a certainty of our eventual demise. His is more specifically understood than most of us. But that does leave him at an advantage of sort, in the interim. He can do a lot of good in that meantime.

 

[Timo]

Of course, he's then a different hero from Kirk, who would spit in the face of defeat and just find a way to give Death a wedgie. Avoiding a known fate ought to be fairly trivial, while giving up doesn't inspire much...

Then again, perhaps Pike was disillusioned by his futile quest to avoid fate during S2? Or perhaps Time Crystals punch the fight out of their victims, making them instead actively seek the demise (or other future) revealed by them?

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Pindar]

I am not sure that what Pike did was especially heroic, he had to get the crystal to stop Control killing all organic life and basically destroying everything.

For him it was a choice between death fairly soon or being locked into a wheelchair at some point years from now.

Horrible to do, but in the circumstances a fairly easy choice to make.

I have had 2 cancer diagnoses now and as terrifying as it is, it eases over time. I think with no symptoms Pike would find he coped fine on the day to day in the run up. It might be different if he knows the date it's going to happen but that wasn't the impression I got.

 

[Timo]

Naturally, Pike might have been fed the exact specs of his fate in that flash-forward - but he could still remain hopeful of the future. He finds himself alive and cared for, after all. Perhaps he will also eventually recover? That knowledge, one way or another, would not be included in the flash-forward package, apparently.

Or would it? As a starship captain, Pike would probably well know the medicine of his present or his foreseeable future can't cope with delta ray destruction. But Pike's "fate" does not end where the flash-forward ends: there's still the trip to Talos IV ahead, and then perhaps further adventures. What would be the rationale for these being omitted from the vision? And if omissions that glaring were in fact part of the vision, wouldn't Pike feel there was something missing, thus feeling less constrained by the prophecy than if he got a proper rundown of everything from here to the final end of everything?

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Search4]

As we learned from Burnham later, it’s one possible future - and it can be avoided. Nice if she had transmitted this to Pike.

 

[Timo]

...Or does the difference lie in Pike picking up the crystal in some significant sense, and Burnham just pawing it in some less significant one? Pike's "Do you lock this option?" moment came only after his vision.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Rainard Fox]

...Or does the difference lie in Pike picking up the crystal in some significant sense, and Burnham just pawing it in some less significant one? Pike's "Do you lock this option?" moment came only after his vision.

Timo Saloniemi

As I had written, Pike had his own experience with visions of future, in s02e07:

Remembering "Lights and Shadows": Pike have seen he was shooting Tyler. In the first time it seemed like he defended from Tyler... In the second time he understood that aimed at the probe's manipulator but missed. Then he gave an order to Tyler "Hold still!" and fired at the evil tentacle succesfully.
...
We know that it will end by a wheelchair. Сontrariwise Pike knows that a vision is not an accomplished fact, because he used one to correct the future. And he knows, that a vision can be misinterpreted.

Re-watching the scene in s02e12, do you have an impression that Pike is trying to see and memorize as much details as he can? (They cutted the cool moment - on BTS footage Pike carried the girl on his shoulder. I hope there was better reason to cut it than "this man is too strong for modern TV".) Even if he can't avoid this moment, he certainly will prepare to do his best before and after that. "When the future became past, the present will be unlocked".

 

[Timo]

I'm not sure Pike did anything differently the "second time" he shot at Tyler; he just sorta realized during/after the fact what the original vision had been about. Yes, he would know that time visions are ambiguous, but everybody on the bridge saw the commbadge-toss time vision and could testify as to the "flashback" being accurate; "flashforwards" being equally accurate is not contradicted by the incident aboard the shuttle. Although of course the experience with the time crystal was more intense (as per Pike's reactions) and probably far more detailed (in terms of how the audience saw it, at least), and perhaps for that reason unlikely to be mentally strongly associated with Pike's tentacle-shooting moment.

Is Pike trying to turn his vision at Boreth into a how-not-to instruction? Quite possibly: despite his visible shock and anguish, he's the guy famed for taking everything in the stride, including mushroom drives, time travel and angelic adversaries. And he's not too caught up in it, readily joking about it next to that torpedo, while OTOH putting no real stock in the future being fixed for him. I could see gears whirring in his head during the vision, even though I can't admit to actually seeing that there.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[CorporalCaptain]

I'm not sure what's going on, but it's at least interesting that Mendez's description in "The Menagerie" that Pike "went in bringing out all those kids that were still alive" [sic] doesn't jibe with the future shown in "Through the Valley of Shadows." Pike has no time to rescue anybody, much less go in and bring people out, besides issuing one verbal order to go and physically trying to save one person in the compartment he was already in to begin with but apparently failing.

It's either a sloppy adaptation, or perhaps the intention is that, when the future finally arrives, Pike, having been forewarned by knowledge of the coming accident, starts saving cadets before it's too late to do anything. It isn't exactly clear, though.