This thread is genetically enhanced... Like Julian

[NewHeavensNewEarth]

No offense to Siddig, but he could phone it in on many occasions, so I am not entirely sympathetic. However, I do take your point. It was an abrupt change of character, and those calculator scenes in Time to Standwere out of character even with the explanation of being genetically enhanced. Perhaps he could learn the rules of Tongo with a glance at the rules, but there was no way he was versed in quantum physics or game theory.

I bought it. As a show, DS9 made important changes to a lot of characters along the way: Sisko, Odo, Dax, Garak, Dukhat, among others. So it's just another twist on a character that gave Bashir something interesting without changing the character dramatically. He still pined after Jadzia, still loved being besties with O'Brien, etc. I can see why some people didn't go for it, but I didn't mind it.

 

[JirinPanthosa]

If they had laid the groundwork that maybe he’s hiding something it would have been fine.

But the change made it so everything about him except being a really good Doctor made no sense.

Yeah, other characters changed, but those changes were earned and developed organically. This change is like if they suddenly said O’Brien was an Android the whole time.

 

[Tosk]

But the change made it so everything about him except being a really good Doctor made no sense.

What things about him no longer made sense?

IMO, everything about him was the same except that he was genetically altered as a child.
Before the reveal, Bashir was a loyal, friendly, hubristic, brilliant man. After the reveal he was still all those things.

Was a timeline where Julian remained as he was prior to his treatments (uncoordinated, under-developed, slow learner) ever explored in Treklit?

Perhaps Mirror Bashir was unaltered and all he needed was time to grow into a man of average intelligence. I've never been able to shake the idea that perhaps Julian (and his parents) overstates how far behind everyone else he really was. He was only seven when they did the procedure, after all.

 

[JirinPanthosa]

What things about him no longer made sense?

IMO, everything about him was the same except that he was genetically altered as a child.
Before the reveal, Bashir was a loyal, friendly, hubristic, brilliant man. After the reveal he was still all those things.

His core personality traits stayed the same, but his emotional relationship to his career accomplishments didn't make sense.

The major episode that's most contradicted is Distant Voices, and more generally his reason for mistaking the pre-ganglionic nerve for a post-ganglionic fiber. This is an episode we got a direct look at his internal feelings. Not a single hint that even slightly suggests he's hiding a huge secret that explains his professional competence. No crew member that represented his genetically enhanced side. But also it stated outright that he self-sabotaged over doubts of his competence. Not because he wanted to hide how smart he was.

Also a bunch of little things. Like in A Man Alone he should have figured out the sphere puzzle immediately. You can say, oh he was faking dumb, but he was trying to impress Jadzia at the time so I doubt he would have done that. If you go through there were probably lots of cases where lives were on the line and he could have contributed an engineering or science solution. He would not have let his faking dumb cost lives. Or in Dramatis Personae, he should have been more effective at taking over the station, or deducing Odo was manipulating him. In Rivals he should have played down to O'Brien's level in tennis just like he did in darts. Etc, etc.

You can NOT chalk every time he appeared uncoordinated or failed to offer expertise in fields other than medicine up to him just hiding his true nature. His emotional feedback in those cases was not consistent with those motives, and there are too many times that doing so would mean risking people's lives.

 

[Tosk]

Naturally, Distant Voices never references genetic manipulation...that would be crazy. But does it directly contradict the idea? We find out near the end that the mind-reading is far from exact and there are mistakes made. It's far from inconceivable that Bashir managed to hide stuff.

But also it stated outright that he self-sabotaged over doubts of his competence. Not because he wanted to hide how smart he was.

"You purposely answered the question wrong. [...] You didn't want to be first in your class. You couldn't take the pressure." They don't say what kind of pressure.

Like in A Man Alone he should have figured out the sphere puzzle immediately.

Dax hasn't mastered it in over a hundred years, Bashir has one quick try at it and is trying to fight down a Dax-boner at the time. He may be brilliant, but he's still green and horny. And that's even assuming he would try to solve it immediately in front of her. You probably don't hide your true self for decades and then just go super-computer on a game just to show off.

If you go through there were probably lots of cases where lives were on the line and he could have contributed an engineering or science solution.

Sure, maybe.

Also, at the end of the day Bashir isn't a flawless robot, he is still a person who has foibles and failings just like the rest of us. Just because he was in situations where being smart would help, doesn't mean he was faking anything if it took him time to come up with something.

 

[Bad Thoughts]

Also a bunch of little things. Like in A Man Alone he should have figured out the sphere puzzle immediately. You can say, oh he was faking dumb, but he was trying to impress Jadzia at the time so I doubt he would have done that. If you go through there were probably lots of cases where lives were on the line and he could have contributed an engineering or science solution. He would not have let his faking dumb cost lives. Or in Dramatis Personae, he should have been more effective at taking over the station, or deducing Odo was manipulating him. In Rivals he should have played down to O'Brien's level in tennis just like he did in darts. Etc, etc.

So he was genetically modified to be omniscient?

 

[Prax]

I think the expectation of how super smart Julian should be comes from the Jack pack episode, or Extreme Measures, or other instances like that.

 

[Bad Thoughts]

I think the expectation of how super smart Julian should be comes from the Jack pack episode, or Extreme Measures, or other instances like that.

I.e., he has plot-smarts.

 

[Tosk]

I think the expectation of how super smart Julian should be comes from the Jack pack episode

Which, while showing him to be very intelligent, also makes it clear that he don't know every damn thing.

 

[Laura Cynthia Chambers]

I.e., he has plot-smarts.

Or they bring something out in him, like a bunch of rowdy kids who are a bad influence on a usually well-behaved child.

 

[lurok]

What things about him no longer made sense?

IMO, everything about him was the same except that he was genetically altered as a child.
Before the reveal, Bashir was a loyal, friendly, hubristic, brilliant man. After the reveal he was still all those things.

Agree - but I feel Sid also played him as a little more intellectually smug/smarter than previous seasons (as he had nothing to hide); maybe something the showrunners encouraged also?

 

[at Quark's]

Agree - but I feel Sid also played him as a little more intellectually smug/smarter than previous seasons (as he had nothing to hide); maybe something the showrunners encouraged also?

Season 1 Bashir could be incredibly smug, sometimes to the point of being a very annoying character to watch (I'll agree that this is subjective, though).

 

[Voth commando1]

So there's an Enterprise episode where a scrawny Vulcan gets mad at Archer, grabs him by the throat, and pushes him up into the ceiling with ease, and another episode where an "Augment" punches, kicks, and tosses Archer around a room like a ragdoll. I felt like we finally got to see what it means to be "3 times stronger" than a human. Is Bashir that strong and fast? In the baseball episode, they talk about how the Vulcan team is 3 times stronger and faster than them... except for Bashir.

Does Bashir need to hold back when the gang get into hand to hand combat with the enemy? Have there been sticky situations where Bashir could've whooped some bad guy who was threatening people with ease.

I think Bashir’s parents focused on developing his mental abilities first, and then improving his motor skills and hand eye coordination, rather than making him physically superhuman.

Both because that wasn’t what they were interested in, and because that would have led to more suspicion.

 

[NewHeavensNewEarth]

With the goal of keeping the mental enhancements a secret, it would've been pretty illogical to give a little kid super strength to bend steel with his bare hands. His parents definitely cared about his mental prowess more than the other stuff.

 

[Voth commando1]

Even so, Julian was considering going into professional Tennis.

 

[HelenofBorg]

I find Starfleet policy towards all genetically enhanced people perplexing. I mean, one admiral said 'For every Julian Bashir there could be a Kahn Singh waiting in the wings'. I suspect most people who were enhanced, like Julian, just want to get on with their lives in peace, and someone need not be enhanced to become a megalomaniac. Rather than the blanket ban on genetically resequenced people from serving in Starfleet or in medicine, it should be dealt with on a case by case basis. Perhaps an additional psyche test to see if they have any undesirable tendencies or something, and then either admit them or deny them. No solution would be perfect, but Julian is an example of why there should NOT be such a blanket ban. He is a complete goof of course, at least in the early seasons, but he is a good person.

Also, I think it is unfair to punish people for what their parents did, think about it, Julian didn't ask to be genetically enhanced, he was a six year old little boy with learning difficulties when his parents took him to have the procedure. I'm glad Starfleet made an exception in his case, but that isn't really good enough on the grand scheme of things. How many other harmless and talented augments were there out there who had been denied the career they wanted? It's worth thinking about.

 

[Prax]

Apparently not many. O'Brien says "There probably hasn't been a case dealing with this in a hundred years."

Also, the sentence was very light. Julian wasn't punished at all, the person responsible was. And Julian's mother was left alone as well. Julian's dad only got 2 years in a walled resort, where he'll have to wear an anklet, and build garden sheds.

I assume the blanket ban exists for the great potential of abuse that exists. By outlawing the practice except for necessities, the government has the legal power to go after those that would abuse the science. The potential for abuse also exists within the individual who has been modified. It would give them great power over others, and a potentially corrupting existence.

If it was totally legal, everyone would eventually have to be genetically enhanced to compete. A new race of human would replace the natural one. There's no predicting what this society would turn into.

 

[HelenofBorg]

I agree that the sentence was light, remarkably so considering societal attitudes. That said, the punishment existed even for cases such as Julians. He was desribed as having social and intellectual disabilities from a young age, which is why his parents sought the resequencing to begin with. Had it been legal for cases where it was necessary (like for children born with these kinds of disabilities), then his parents would not have had to break the law to seek treatment.

I did not see the significance of this the first time I watched DS9 as a teenager, but now, as a parent in my late 30s... if I knew my little girl was suffering and there was a treatment available which was denied by bigoted law... would I break the law to obtain the treatment... Yes, I think I would, as would many parents, and I am a law abiding person as a rule. There are some moral circumstances in which is is necessary to break the law, not because you have no respect for law, but because you recognize that sometimes it is wrong, even when it's right most of the time. Richard and Amsha were not wrong to seek treatment, they did the best they could for their son, they did what they did not because they are criminals, but because they love their son, and they didn't want to see him institutionalized for the rest of his life. As a parent, I get them, I understand their decision, and in their shoes I'd have probably done the same.

I'm not saying at all that the Federation should make it available to everyone, even those who are born normal, only to those with significant disabilities. Such things should be used to reduce suffering, not to make designer babies, and there is a huge chasm of difference. If you could avoid passing on a potentially debilitating gene, wouldn't you? For the health of the next generation, even if it is too late for you? Think about the human side of this.

 

[kkt]

If the Federation decided they could bring young Bashir up to average, maybe there would have been less temptation to make him into a genius. Since what they were doing was illegal, maybe Richard and Amsha would have been wiser to keep Bashir within the normal range, so that he wouldn't have had to hide his abilities. What good are abilities you have to conceal, really?

 

[Prax]

Or Bashir is right, and his parents should've given him a chance

Edit: mirror Bashir probably wasn't genetically engineered and he turned out mostly okay. Sort of