The positive Voyager thread: What was good with the series?

[jmidnight_99]

Why does everyone have to "slut shame" this character for how she dresses (done in the name of feminism)?

You're saying all female Trek characters should dress in military fatigues or in other traditionally conservative ways?

Some females enjoy dressing in a more sexualized way at a certain point in their lives or their whole lives through. Others are more conservative. Why is one way wrong and the other right? Hasn't anyone here ever been to a party, club, or a bar before?

No one ever complains when an outfit shows off a male actors physique. All male actors today are super muscular and obviously worked a long time to look like that. It's not natural to look like that but nobody complains, nor should they. Women/gay men like to look at good looking men with great bodies. But it's wrong for female characters to dress in a way that flatters their figures.

People love to use the word "objectify", but isn't that the whole point of film? We objectify men, violence, cars, landscapes, pets, starships, buildings, etc. We try to add character, narrative, ethics and philosopy to these images but we're still objectifying.

The "sexualized" outfits worked for this character. No, not all females would express their sexuality in this way, but some obviously do.

Clearly, many fans of the Berman era shows and movies, take Trek way too seriously. But these shows took themselves too seriously and eventually that turned off general audiences. That's how we wound up with Seven of Nine in the first place. She was alluringly exotic. Her looks and character brought attention to a show that was struggling. Berman Trek fans always brag about how intelligent his shows were, but political, militaristic science fiction stories only have so much appeal to general audiences.

There is a demand for sexuality in film/television by the general public. Gene understood that, but some here have obviously never seen TOS.

Jeri Ryan was not the victim of a sex crime by being talked into dressing in that costume. Nor does it necessarily represent who she really is. It was a character. She was being a professional actress.

That's my long winded way of expressing what I feel was a positive aspect of the show. SON's sexuality.

However, I liked Kes better anyway. But fans hated her for other reasons.

I don't come here to make political statements. I am just responding to others socio-political criticisms and not singling anyone out.

It's the fan boy syndrome. I never knew there was a single thing wrong with Wesley Crusher until the internet. I never knew that there was anything wrong with that Voyager warp 10 episode until the internet. I never knew there was a problem with Seven's tight suit until the internet. I never knew Enterprise wasn't "good" until the internet.

The Usenet fan boys want to make the rules from their D&D office in Mama's basement.

 

[jmidnight_99]

The Borg didn't think the Kazons were worth assimilating, they didn't feel this way about the Klingons.

I don't think the Kazon had anything in common with Klingons, whatsoever. The Kazon are completely inferior, and probably shouldn't even be used in the same sentence.

 

[jmidnight_99]

I always enjoyed VOYAGER, even though it ranks lower to me among the first 5 series... 6, counting The Animated Series.

The show had a number of flaws, but one of the things I always respected and loved about VOYAGER was the number of really high concept ideas that were used... a living nebula ("THE CLOUD"), a living twisting phenomenon ("TWISTED"), a species that ages in reverse ("INNOCENCE"), a giant virus ("MACROCOSM"), living your life backwards ("BEFORE AND AFTER"), using time itself as a weapon ("YEAR OF HELL"), a black market of violent thoughts ("RANDOM THOUGHTS"), a body swapper ("VIS A VIS"), an ocean in space ("THIRTY DAYS"), Chaotic Space ("THE FIGHT"), an episode where we, the audience, are the only ones who get to know a ship of doppelgangers ("COURSE: OBLIVION"), a sentient bomb ("WARHEAD"), a planet we see evolve for centuries in just hours ("BLINK OF AN EYE"), a monument that makes people relive a massacre ("MEMORIAL"), a species that procreates by altering the dead of others ("ASHES TO ASHES"), a unique way to do a clip show ("SHATTERED").

While some of these episodes were poorly executed, I give them credit for trying them out. It did make the Delta Quadrant feel like a strange place... and as past Janeway put it, a death trap.

I'd like to know how they could have been better executed.

 

[F. King Daniel]

Why does everyone have to "slut shame" this character for how she dresses (done in the name of feminism)?

You're saying all female Trek characters should dress in military fatigues or in other traditionally conservative ways?

Some females enjoy dressing in a more sexualized way at a certain point in their lives or their whole lives through. Others are more conservative. Why is one way wrong and the other right? Hasn't anyone here ever been to a party, club, or a bar before?

No one ever complains when an outfit shows off a male actors physique. All male actors today are super muscular and obviously worked a long time to look like that. It's not natural to look like that but nobody complains, nor should they. Women/gay men like to look at good looking men with great bodies. But it's wrong for female characters to dress in a way that flatters their figures.

People love to use the word "objectify", but isn't that the whole point of film? We objectify men, violence, cars, landscapes, pets, starships, buildings, etc. We try to add character, narrative, ethics and philosopy to these images but we're still objectifying.

The "sexualized" outfits worked for this character. No, not all females would express their sexuality in this way, but some obviously do.

Clearly, many fans of the Berman era shows and movies, take Trek way too seriously. But these shows took themselves too seriously and eventually that turned off general audiences. That's how we wound up with Seven of Nine in the first place. She was alluringly exotic. Her looks and character brought attention to a show that was struggling. Berman Trek fans always brag about how intelligent his shows were, but political, militaristic science fiction stories only have so much appeal to general audiences.

There is a demand for sexuality in film/television by the general public. Gene understood that, but some here have obviously never seen TOS.

Jeri Ryan was not the victim of a sex crime by being talked into dressing in that costume. Nor does it necessarily represent who she really is. It was a character. She was being a professional actress.

That's my long winded way of expressing what I feel was a positive aspect of the show. SON's sexuality.

However, I liked Kes better anyway. But fans hated her for other reasons.

I don't come here to make political statements. I am just responding to others socio-political criticisms and not singling anyone out.

The character was not expressing her sexuality because she had none to begin with. In-universe, it was the holographic doctor who chose her look and form, not Annika Hansen/Seven of Nine. It wasn't until seasons later she began to explore her sexuality (and no, Harry Kim in the Jeffries tube does not count. He saw she was clueless and the situation was fucked up)

That not wearing the catsuit was a key part of the pitch to Jeri for her return for ST: Picard says it all about her thoughts on the subject.

 

[Farscape One]

I'd like to know how they could have been better executed.

"TWISTED" - the episode was just boring. Even on a rewatch it feels painful to get through the episode. I don't know how it could be improved, though. Maybe not be so static. (I'm pretty sure this episode was done as a bottle show to save for the effects of the landing in "THE 37's", which was produced directly after this episode and were the final two produced episodes in season 1.

"THE FIGHT" - it just felt like the episode was all over the place. Having the aliens piece a conversation from multiple people at once was a bit jarring. I get what the writers were trying to do, but I just felt it came across in a confusing way.

"ASHES TO ASHES" - honestly, my issue was that the guest actress completely outshined Garrett Wang. Which is not a bad thing, nor difficult to do. But I would have made Ballard have more of a friendship with other stronger actors... I think it would have made even better scenes. Also, she should have been someone we have seen or at least heard of before. It would have had more impact to the audience, I think.

All the others I mentioned, I really love, so I have no problem with them.

 

[Discofan]

Enterprise was a great show. Again, the same old stale rhetoric repeated over and over and over. Say it enough, maybe someone will believe it. You confuse "Not what I wanted, the way I wanted it" with "not good". The only thing I didn't care for in this show was the theme song. it wasn't what I wanted the way I wanted it, either, thank heaven. I like to dig for the treasure, I'm not interested in having it neatly packaged and dumped in my lap.

What's not to like! Iffy acting! (Jolene Blalock and Anthony Montgomery were not up to par) Weird characters (a witch doctor in the 22nd century! Yeah sure!)
shocking ideas (you have to not help these people because it will allow others to build a new society on their cadavers!!!)... And some really really bad stories! ( "A night in sickbay" comes to mind)... this could be developed much further but this isn't a bash ent thread so I'll stop here.

 

[Nightdiamond]

I'll say this for Voyager; it did take risks story wise, probably more than the other Treks. And it did have some creative ideas.

In fact, I think it had some really underrated episodes like Course Oblivion.

And episodes like Warlord was simply fun to watch. Kes (and Jennifer) was gold in that episode.

Voyager was just a little too gimmicky and over did ideas that were already stretched, like the Borg, Q, time travel etc.

 

[JirinPanthosa]

There's a difference between wearing 'Traditionally conservative clothes' and wearing nonfunctional clothes for the sole purpose of titillation.

Nobody is slut shaming Seven, they're exploitation shaming the producers.

There is a big difference between highlighting someone's natural sexuality and artificially forcing it at the expense of her other characteristics.

 

[Discofan]

I don't think they overdid it with Seven. Nothing says that in the future people have to wear boring asexual clothes.

 

[Nightdiamond]

There's a difference between wearing 'Traditionally conservative clothes' and wearing nonfunctional clothes for the sole purpose of titillation.

Nobody is slut shaming Seven, they're exploitation shaming the producers.

There is a big difference between highlighting someone's natural sexuality and artificially forcing it at the expense of her other characteristics.

It's pretty obvious the cat suit outfit was meant to get attention.

It can argued that Seven is just wearing a practical outfit to function in, (and it's a actually a good argument) but it's hard to look at it and then pretend it's just a regular outfit anyone would wear.

Trek does have a history of doing that, like with Troi wearing the plunging, cleavage-revealing outfits, even though she is supposed to be a counselor and a commissioned officer.


Maybe what makes it with Seven is that it appears very obvious or in your face. Everyone was going to point a figure straight at the producers.

She still looked very nice in that outfit, practical or not.

Update: Wait, how did Seven pee in that thing ? Or did she have to?

I might have to take that back.

 

[Prax]

Seven has a replicator in her stomach that recycles waste into usable electricity.

 

[Discofan]

Seven has a replicator in her stomach that recycles waste into usable electricity.

Do you realize that if extraterrestrials captured us, with no idea of what we are, and tried to figure out what's our purpose, they would likely conclude that we are a shit factory?

 

[jmidnight_99]

"TWISTED" - the episode was just boring. Even on a rewatch it feels painful to get through the episode. I don't know how it could be improved, though. Maybe not be so static. (I'm pretty sure this episode was done as a bottle show to save for the effects of the landing in "THE 37's", which was produced directly after this episode and were the final two produced episodes in season 1.

"THE FIGHT" - it just felt like the episode was all over the place. Having the aliens piece a conversation from multiple people at once was a bit jarring. I get what the writers were trying to do, but I just felt it came across in a confusing way.

"ASHES TO ASHES" - honestly, my issue was that the guest actress completely outshined Garrett Wang. Which is not a bad thing, nor difficult to do. But I would have made Ballard have more of a friendship with other stronger actors... I think it would have made even better scenes. Also, she should have been someone we have seen or at least heard of before. It would have had more impact to the audience, I think.

All the others I mentioned, I really love, so I have no problem with them.

I don't care for "The Fight" either... but it was an unusual episode and I take it as such. This is what was good about Voyager, though. People don't seem to like the really out there episodes, but they were across the galaxy. Things needed to be out there, or they would be across the galaxy, but everything was the same.

"Ashes to Ashes" grosses me out. A reanimated cadaver just being accepted. Again, a species that procreates by reanimating the dead of other species is outside the box and across the galaxy for Star Trek I think.

"Twisted" is a fine.

 

[jmidnight_99]

I don't think they overdid it with Seven. Nothing says that in the future people have to wear boring asexual clothes.

For once, we agree on something. Besides, why the hell would anyone (meaning producers) cover that when they had it to show?

 

[jmidnight_99]

There's a difference between wearing 'Traditionally conservative clothes' and wearing nonfunctional clothes for the sole purpose of titillation.

Nobody is slut shaming Seven, they're exploitation shaming the producers.

There is a big difference between highlighting someone's natural sexuality and artificially forcing it at the expense of her other characteristics.

What other character would look good in a skin tight suit?

Oh, by the way... you do realize that TOS had all the women in mini-mini-skirts, right? Have we forgotten that? Because it destroys your argument. And, my bet is: If the censors at the time would have let it, and the actresses at the time had the bodies for it, all the women of TOS would have looked like Seven, except with more exposed flesh.

 

[jmidnight_99]

I'll say this for Voyager; it did take risks story wise, probably more than the other Treks. And it did have some creative ideas.

In fact, I think it had some really underrated episodes like Course Oblivion.

And episodes like Warlord was simply fun to watch. Kes (and Jennifer) was gold in that episode.

Voyager was just a little too gimmicky and over did ideas that were already stretched, like the Borg, Q, time travel etc.

"Course: Oblivion" really surprised me. It's one of the few times I was surprised by what was going on. I love the episode, and hate that they were destroyed, but think of it. They would have to be. Imagine them getting back to Earth.

I have a problem with "Voyager was too gimmiky and over did ideas that were already stretched" though. First, ALL the series used and sometimes overused these crutches. The Borg was a different thing though, since they were traveling in the Borg space. I think there was just enough Borg on Voyager. Second, people hate the "out there" episodes. They complain when the episodes are re-hashed versions of the same thing, and hate when the episodes are too foreign.

I don't understand the hate for "Threshold". It amazed me the first time I watched it, it still does on re-watches. It's great science fiction.

 

[Discofan]

What other character would look good in a skin tight suit?

Oh, by the way... you do realize that TOS had all the women in mini-mini-skirts, right? Have we forgotten that? Because it destroys your argument. And, my bet is: If the censors at the time would have let it, and the actresses at the time had the bodies for it, all the women of TOS would have looked like Seven, except with more exposed flesh.

Yes, I didn't hear many protests when in one episode we saw Archer and Trip play some outdoor game, all sweaty and barechested. Had they done a similar thing with women all hell would have gotten loose!!!

 

[jmidnight_99]

What's not to like! Iffy acting! (Jolene Blalock and Anthony Montgomery were not up to par) Weird characters (a witch doctor in the 22nd century! Yeah sure!)
shocking ideas (you have to not help these people because it will allow others to build a new society on their cadavers!!!)... And some really really bad stories! ( "A night in sickbay" comes to mind)... this could be developed much further but this isn't a bash ent thread so I'll stop here.

I can't disagreee more.

First, most Star Trek actors aren't the greatest actors. Sometimes you notce it, sometimes you don't. I can remember re-watching some TNG episodes (25 years after I saw them for the first time) when it hit me... Levar Burton can, in many circumstances, be a terrible actor. And Doctor Crusher, too. Sulu, Checkov were not the best actors, That horrible doctor from DS9. Let's face it, many of them falter when stretched. I think Jolene was perfect for the part. Anthony Montgomery was no more or less a bad an actor than any of them.

The stories were often OUT THERE. Way out there, which makes them uncomfortable. I initially was taken aback by how out there they could be. But after re-watching them, I got them. And I'm glad I did.

No offense meant here (really), but has it occurred to you that you make your mind up once, form an opinion, and then that's it? Almost everything has many facets... just focusing on one and only one is very life-limiting. I will tell you with complete honesty that the absolute best things in my life that I have, I've had to give myself ample time to study/learn/ or get used to.

Next time you're faced with a "Night in Sickbay", (both literally and figuratively) find the "thread" that you can tug to open the whole episode. It's there, and worth the effort.

 

[Prax]

I don't have an issue with Seven's outfits. They are essentially what she wore as a Borg, minus the weird muscled curass and armor plates. What I think is bad about her outfit is the high heels.

Seven's outfit isn't some exception, though. It shouldn't be used to disparage the producers unless the person complaining about it is willing to give equal grievance to TNG, DS9, and Enterprise.

Troy wore a catsuit(with a great deal of cleavage) and high heels from seasons 1-6
Kira wore a catsuit and high heels from season 4 onward
T'Pol wore a catsuit and high heels.

In Universe reasons go-
Troy wears it because she likes it and is comfortable in it. Also, catsuits are very common in TNG for men, women, and children

Kira has no reason, as every other Bajoran militia member, including women, continues wearing the standard uniform with boots. Maybe she should have ordered Odo to adjust his uniform to look more like hers. Odo in catsuit with high heels anyone?

T'Pol wears it because it's her Vulcan uniform, and Vulcans(Vulcan high command Vulcans) typically wear tight uniforms. When she resigns, she wears whatever she wants. There is no reason why she still wears one in season 4(as opposed to a normal Starfleet uniform). She apparently gets a special priveledge or something.

Lastly, Seven wears it because the doctor designed her outfit to be compatible with what she's always known as a borg. And if you'd like, the doctor may have a thing for space babes in silver catsuits, perhaps owing to some latent subroutines inherited from his creator.

I've seen occasional complaints about T'Pol's outfit, probably a bit more about Troy. I see complaints about Seven's outfit like... constantly, and I don't know if I've ever seen any "outrage" over Kira's uniform.

 

[jmidnight_99]

Yes, I didn't hear many protests when in one episode we saw Archer and Trip play some outdoor game, all sweaty and barechested. Had they done a similar thing with women all hell would have gotten loose!!!

Thanks for THAT visual.