I think KRAD's take on Jellico in his Captain's Log comic was closer to what how you saw the character than to Peter David's version.
Star Trek: New Frontier--from the beginning
- Thread starter Damian
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What I got from that episode was that Jellico was just fine to deal with the situation at hand, but that the officers of the Enterprise in general (except Data), and Riker in particular were ill-equipped to deal with things happening around them. Instead of digging in and adapting to their new CO, they spend their time whining about how different Jellico is from Picard. And Riker totally abdicates his duties as an Executive Officer. Not only does he not work with Jellico to implement the captain's plans and orders, he actively undermines Jellico's positions with the rest of the crew instead of wrking with them to find solutions to carry out Jellico's orders (something Data DOES do throughout). And then Riker goes off to his room to sulk. Riker should have faced disciplinary action and maybe courts martial after this. And how he got a command I'll never understand.
This guy gets it:
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But Shelby is not by the book on screen; she's the one constantly skirting Riker's authority to get things done, and ends up reminding Riker of when he was younger and a little less hidebound.
Also I think Riker et al. reacted poorly to Jellico, but Jellico was a pretty poor leader, too. Both sides there were in the wrong in my opinion.
She was ambitious, yes. But that doesn't mean she's a rebel in the vein of Calhoun. We actually didn't get to see much of what makes Shelby tick in "The Best of Both Worlds" other than her ambition. So it did still leave a lot of areas Peter David could work on to develop her character. I did like when Jellico was hinting that he wanted Shelby to be a mole that she told him to shove it. She would do her job, but HER job, not someone else's.
And David made her a more likable character I thought.
I could see that argument. I think Jellico was written in the episode to be unlikable, and David's portrayal mostly continued that (as did the other novels he is featured in). The only thing is when Riker, or Troi, tried to address the various issues with Jellico, he basically made it clear he didn't want to hear it. That was their problem, not his. So I think you could argue also that they did try to work with Jellico, and reasonably brought concerns to him, but that he was having none of it. He blew them off.
I disagreed with Christopher that Jellico perhaps could be a nice guy in social company. He struck me as a guy who had to have things his way, right or wrong, and he didn't want to hear any dissent. Sort of like the arrogant know-it-all who really knew nothing.
Actually Jellico struck me as someone who learned the mechanics of being a nice guy in social occasions. But at his core, his character struck me as actually awkward underneath what he had learned to do mechanically. I think the character is socially awkward because he doesn't pick up on non-verbal social cues.
Also, I think he probably has "collected" information in disarming social situations that have ended up being used in non-social situations. I don't think he's outright manipulative, or malicious, just that the ethics of it would be a non-issue for him.
These are just impressions that the character and the actor's performance gave me.
Also, I think he probably has "collected" information in disarming social situations that have ended up being used in non-social situations. I don't think he's outright manipulative, or malicious, just that the ethics of it would be a non-issue for him.
These are just impressions that the character and the actor's performance gave me.
Just finished #12, Being Human. Another enjoyable adventure in this new era. Loved the very Red Dwarf “Space Corps Directive” joke in the middle. Obviously the directives aren’t as ridiculous as the ones there but they still made me laugh.
It’s funny that this whole series has reminded me of Stargate in some way or another and this book took it to another level. Especially with using Anubis.
It’s funny that this whole series has reminded me of Stargate in some way or another and this book took it to another level. Especially with using Anubis.
I'll be going away again next week and pulled the next 2 NF books to re-read (books 3 and 4). The first 4 books are short novels so I can get through 2 of those in a week. After completing the series after "The Returned" came out a few years back it was interesting to go back to the beginning, where it all started. It's interesting to read them a 2nd time around after you know where they will all end up eventually. For instance, I look at McHenry's 'odd' behavior and mannerisms in a different light since I know who he truly is (I wonder if Peter David had an idea of where he was going with McHenry in the early going).
If I recall correctly, the backstories and surprises of the books from the beginning to Stone & Anvil were all more or less worked out in advance. After he got to the point that all the backstory he'd planned had been revealed, he did the time jump so that he could keep the same structure of new things happening while old things are revealed. (In my opinion, the series should've just stopped with Stone & Anvil, but that's neither here nor there.)
Well, that does make some sense thinking back. It seems he did at least have some broad strokes planned out, that he didn't just come up with some of the plotlines out of the blue.
The time jump was a bit jarring. It helped that he put a warning in the foreward of the next book (I forget the book that followed Stone and Anvil off hand). It reminded me a bit of the jump in time of the DS9 books. Thankfully later DS9 books filled in some of the missing history which helped provide a more complete story. But in NF it still feels like something was missing.
I liked the later NF books, though I'd agree they lost something from the earlier books. Calhoun was still Calhoun and some of the other characters were still the same, but it lost a little of the magic. Not surprising I suppose. It happens to the best of series after a while. There are still a number of loose ends I'd love to see resolved from "The Returned" though I doubt we'll see any future NF books. I also would have been interested to see another author do a NF book. Don't get me wrong, this isn't a complaint about Peter David...it just would have been interesting to see what another author could do with a NF story. I am reading "Diplomatic Implausibility" by KRAD and some NF characters made a brief cameo (KRAD did seem to capture the spirit of McHenry and Soleta...oh and Kebron too, pretty well in their brief appearance).
No, I forgot all about that. Something else I'll have to pick up.
At least that'll be a chance to see what some other writers did with the characters, though I'd love to see a writer tackle an entire NF novel.
I wonder how Peter David would feel about that. He freely acknowledges he has no ownership of NF, I mean, he obviously knows the deal with Star Trek tie in novels. He just happens to be the only author that's written full length NF novels. But I wonder, since he created the storylines and a number of NF characters I wonder if he's protective at all of NF. I guess that could go for any author that's created a character for Star Trek in a book and sees another author take up the torch in a later novel. You know you don't 'own' it, but I wonder if you still feel a certain protectiveness of that character even knowing that.
Maybe I'm reading too much into David's comments about NF he made several years ago, but it almost seemed to me that he would have maybe been interested in seeing another writer write a NF novel.
He tends to sometimes complete the story he set out to tell, but then just keeps going because he loves the world and the characters so much. Which I totally get. His 80s TOS comics for DC fell victim to Richard Arnold's meddling And his original 80s run of X-Factor for Marvel fell victim to constant crossovers. When he was given the reigns to New Frontier and his X-Factor Investigations run he understandably didn't want to leave after now having the creative freedom he craved in the '80s. Plus he really took those obscure X-Men and Trek characters and really made them his own. I totally get why he kept going post-Stone & Anvil and X-Factor #50. Hell, he was probably hoping those time jumps would fuel him creatively. They didn't, but that doesn't retroactively negate 50 issues and 17 novels (or 14 if you consider the first four a single novel released serially ala The Green Mile).
Also, come to think of it, he just kept fucking going and going with his legendary twelve year Hulk run to constant critical acclaim. I'm sure he went beyond his original plans back then and was probably hoping to have the same post-script season success with New Frontier and X-Factor. Again, he didn't. But I totally get the attempt.
Oh sure. I don't begrudge him the attempt either. I just think that the stories he chose to tell after the time jump were weirdly awful.
It seemed like the only way he tried to create drama for several books in a row was by killing off main characters, which is shocking once and then at a certain point just gets draining. And then comes The Returned, when he builds a strangely twisted pseudo-rape scenario and plays it for laughs, which really made me uncomfortable. (And content like that doesn't usually trouble me; it's not that it existed, its that it was handled so flippantly.) And how everyone just starts becoming incompetent; the first few NF books showed a crew that was wacky but very good at their jobs. In The Returned, crew members forget to obey direct orders, fail to communicate obviously important information, and intentionally lie to manipulate each other into doing things right and left. Everyone's reaction to anything is to be confused or try to blow it up. No one ever tries to figure anything out or discuss what it means. It's particularly bizarre after the sensitivity of stories like Once Burned.
The books just started to leave a bad taste in my mouth.
The books just started to leave a bad taste in my mouth.
I'm not sure how David planned out his NF novels later on. It sounds like from you guys he had the first several books planned out, at least in broad strokes. I wonder if it would have helped if he did that with the later books as well. Have a couple years planned out further (I'm assuming he didn't do that after the time jump).
I guess I can see your POV about "The Returned". I liked that it gave us some conclusion to the D'Myurj storyline. And it left some loose ends that could be picked up in future books. Though unfortunately I don't really see that happening. I'm sure Peter David would love to write another one, but I doubt S&S will commission anymore--from him or anyone else (though I continue to hope that maybe NF, along with DS9, Voyager--after To Lose the Earth, and Enterprise books could maybe continue as E-books at least).
Yeah, she was a great character. I'd love to see an actual US President like her. Tough talking, get the job done, no BS and with good ethical standards and good common sense. And I think most, if not all of the writers handled her character pretty well. I was sad to see her demise, though the current Federation President zh'Tarash novels is pretty good as well.
I completed my re-read of books 3 and 4 last week during vacation. Like I noted before, it was nice to see the Excalibur crew at their beginnings.
In many ways the first 4 books are like one of the 2 hour pilot episodes of the various spin-off series. There are obviously a couple of subplots in each novel but the first 4 books are best read as a continuous story (which they were eventually released as a single book--I have the original separated books).
It was interesting to read the 4 books knowing what I know about the series now. For instance, knowing how Thallon would be destroyed made it interesting to read the clues this time around. Also it was interesting to read the beginnings of Selar and Burgoyne's relationship. And I have to say I liked the earlier version of Kebron better. I understand David's reasoning for Kebron's later, um, change--probably because Kebron was in danger of becoming one dimensional--and I think David likes to throw a few monkey wrenches in the mix too to challenge expectations. It's also interesting to see Soleta at this point in her career.
I also always liked David's sense of humor in his books. Sometimes he puts things in his books that make me laugh out loud. A good laugh is always nice.
And Calhoun is an interesting captain. We've had many debates about whether Kirk is a maverick or not. But I don't think there's any doubt Calhoun is a maverick. Now it can be argued in the former Thallonian Empire he's exactly the type of captain they need. Someone familiar with the area of course. But also someone that thinks on their feet and has excellent instincts. It's an area falling into anarchy in many areas and the usual rules and conventions just aren't enough. And having Shelby as his first officer is a good way to keep him grounded to an extent. It's good to have someone remind you of rules and regulations--they're not useless after all. They are just a starting point. And occasionally Calhoun even listens to her advice or grants some of her arguments have some wisdom.
I have to admit I find Lefler a bit annoying at times in the early books. Her character improved toward the later books of the series but at this early point she grates on me a bit.
Next summer when I go away again I'll move on to books 5 and 6. I'll probably re-read the first several novels at least to the time jump. While I liked the later novels, they seemed to drop off a bit after that. We'll see in a few years if I decide to re-read the later novels. But like rewatching a favorite TV series after the first time through, it's nice to see these characters at their beginnings on the Excalibur and how it all started.
In many ways the first 4 books are like one of the 2 hour pilot episodes of the various spin-off series. There are obviously a couple of subplots in each novel but the first 4 books are best read as a continuous story (which they were eventually released as a single book--I have the original separated books).
It was interesting to read the 4 books knowing what I know about the series now. For instance, knowing how Thallon would be destroyed made it interesting to read the clues this time around. Also it was interesting to read the beginnings of Selar and Burgoyne's relationship. And I have to say I liked the earlier version of Kebron better. I understand David's reasoning for Kebron's later, um, change--probably because Kebron was in danger of becoming one dimensional--and I think David likes to throw a few monkey wrenches in the mix too to challenge expectations. It's also interesting to see Soleta at this point in her career.
I also always liked David's sense of humor in his books. Sometimes he puts things in his books that make me laugh out loud. A good laugh is always nice.
And Calhoun is an interesting captain. We've had many debates about whether Kirk is a maverick or not. But I don't think there's any doubt Calhoun is a maverick. Now it can be argued in the former Thallonian Empire he's exactly the type of captain they need. Someone familiar with the area of course. But also someone that thinks on their feet and has excellent instincts. It's an area falling into anarchy in many areas and the usual rules and conventions just aren't enough. And having Shelby as his first officer is a good way to keep him grounded to an extent. It's good to have someone remind you of rules and regulations--they're not useless after all. They are just a starting point. And occasionally Calhoun even listens to her advice or grants some of her arguments have some wisdom.
I have to admit I find Lefler a bit annoying at times in the early books. Her character improved toward the later books of the series but at this early point she grates on me a bit.
Next summer when I go away again I'll move on to books 5 and 6. I'll probably re-read the first several novels at least to the time jump. While I liked the later novels, they seemed to drop off a bit after that. We'll see in a few years if I decide to re-read the later novels. But like rewatching a favorite TV series after the first time through, it's nice to see these characters at their beginnings on the Excalibur and how it all started.
That biggest mistake was spreading the characters out to a shitload of different ships and space station. I honestly still don't understand the thought process behind that, because it really hurt one of the best things about the series, the characters and their relationships.
Yeah, something was definitely lost. My guess is he was probably trying to emulate real life in some ways. It'd be unlikely on a real ship for a crew to be together for too many years. Eventually some of the officers would be promoted and transferred to other ships.
But one of the great things about early NF novels was their interactions and relationships with each other. Everyone had a story.
And I think the 3 year jump was a bit too jarring. Even though he warned about that it was still a bit off-putting. It might have been nice to have something akin to what the DS9 relaunches did when they had their own time jump--and that is to have sort of flashbacks to those missing 3 years. How did Calhoun and Jellico become buddy-buddy for instance. What were the circumstances behind Soleta becoming a Romulan Commander? He covered that in very broad strokes but a lot was left off the table I thought.
I still liked the later novels to some extent, but they lost something along the way. I'm really enjoying re-reading the early NF novels and remembering some of the things I really liked about NF when I first started reading them. The enjoyment meter had dropped a bit with the last several books.
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