Why is everyone more robotic than V'Ger in TMP?

[Christopher]

When In Thy Image was repurposed for TMP, not only did the character arcs for Kirk and Decker have to be developed and resolved within the two hour story, they had to resolve to an outcome that no longer matched the setup they were meant for AND it now had to incorporate Nimoy’s character in a staring role. Decker became a vestigial appendage that while still woven into the fabric of the story, had no function beyond it. These were fundamental story problem that really needed to be solved.

I realized a while back that TMP is basically structured like a 2-part TV episode. Part 1 is about Kirk clashing with Decker, an arc that gets resolved after the wormhole incident when McCoy chews Kirk out and gets him to realize he's been letting his obsession with command blind him to Decker's competence. In Part 2, Decker becomes more of a partner to Kirk while the emphasis shifts to Spock's return and the contact with V'Ger, though Decker still has his own subplot with the Ilia probe.

I believe that only one line of dialogue suggests this: "I remember when you recommended me for this command." But does this have to be construed to mean that Kirk "chose" Decker? Kirk's recommendation would not necessarily have been the sole deciding factor.

Poor choice of words, but my point stands, because it's specifically Kirk's opinion of Decker that I'm talking about. Kirk believed, at the time, that Decker was the best choice to fill his shoes as captain of the Enterprise. It's hard to believe that Kirk would feel that way if Decker hadn't already proven he was fully qualified to do the job.

(Apologies if, among the hundreds of novels I haven't read, there are any that address the post-Kirk, pre-refit voyages of the Enterprise.)

There are none, as far as I know. Despite the one-year discrepancy, it's always been assumed that the Enterprise was out of service for the full 2.5 years that Kirk was at Starfleet Operations, presumably sitting in a hangar awaiting its turn in the refit schedule, or something. In my own Department of Temporal Investigations: Forgotten History, I accounted for the gap by saying that the Enterprise spent much of that year on temporary display at the Smithsonian's orbital annex (a nod to the restored Enterprise miniature at the National Air & Space Museum).

 

[Pauln6]

There is a fan edit out there split into two episodes with TOS music, I think.

 

[Tenacity]

I assume (head canon) that Decker took over from Kirk and the Enterprise continued doing "mission stuff."

When the redesign phase was complete, Decker brought the ship to Earth and the refit phase commenced. Decker, now experienced in all thing Enterprise assisted with the refit. The intent was that Decker would continue as captain following the refit.

Having the Enterprise (if it was capable) just sit around would be odd.

 

[gottacook]

Thus the contradiction. Decker can't be both "an untried Captain" (in Scott's words) and the captain since the day of Kirk's promotion. In the latter case, he'd have been captain of an active ship for the entire year before the refit began, and thus qualified not only to supervise the refit but to be the captain afterward. The latter case makes more sense; the former would require a young commander, whether recommended by Kirk or not, to have accepted the captaincy of a ship that would be out of service for a year, followed by 18 months of refit.

 

[Christopher]

Having the Enterprise (if it was capable) just sit around would be odd.

Not really. After coming back from a turbulent 5-year mission, it'd be pretty banged up, so it'd be unrealistic to expect them to just turn it around and send it back out like a race car making a pit stop. In my novels, I've posited that the reason for the "5-year mission" parameter is that 5 years is the maximum recommended time between overhauls for the Constitution class -- its systems aren't designed to withstand more than 5 years' worth of wear and tear between replacements/upgrades. So the ship couldn't have been sent right back out again in any case.

And it'd take time to do a thorough engineering assay, to make decisions about how to refit it and to what extent, and to prepare the necessary facilities and components for said refit. The decision to do such a complete reconstruction may have further delayed the process. And it would presumably be one of multiple ships on the dockyards' refit schedule, so it'd have to wait its turn.

 

[Pauln6]

Not really. After coming back from a turbulent 5-year mission, it'd be pretty banged up, so it'd be unrealistic to expect them to just turn it around and send it back out like a race car making a pit stop. In my novels, I've posited that the reason for the "5-year mission" parameter is that 5 years is the maximum recommended time between overhauls for the Constitution class -- its systems aren't designed to withstand more than 5 years' worth of wear and tear between replacements/upgrades. So the ship couldn't have been sent right back out again in any case.

And it'd take time to do a thorough engineering assay, to make decisions about how to refit it and to what extent, and to prepare the necessary facilities and components for said refit. The decision to do such a complete reconstruction may have further delayed the process. And it would presumably be one of multiple ships on the dockyards' refit schedule, so it'd have to wait its turn.

It's possible that Kirk remained captain of the Enterprise while performing lectures, writing up his various theses based on his experience, attending strategy,meetings etc, while the Enterprise carried out local patrols and missions.

 

[Tenacity]

Decker can't be both "an untried Captain" (in Scott's words) and the captain since the day of Kirk's promotion

while the Enterprise carried out local patrols and missions

Decker being untried in Scott's eyes could be a matter of what the Enterprise was doing during Decker's time in the center seat, where the ship was sent.

He could have gone up and down the Romulan Neutral Zone for weeks, nothing happened. Delivered supplies to outposts. Carried diplomats and nobody died. Nice peaceful survey missions of nebulae and uninhabited planets.

Perhaps Decker never saw combat as a captain, never handles a first contact.

Depends on what Scott meant.

 

[Discofan]

Decker being untried in Scott's eyes could be a matter of what the Enterprise was doing during Decker's time in the center seat, where the ship was sent.

He could have gone up and down the Romulan Neutral Zone for weeks, nothing happened. Delivered supplies to outposts. Carried diplomats and nobody died. Nice peaceful survey missions of nebulae and uninhabited planets.

Perhaps Decker never saw combat as a captain, never handles a first contact.

Depends on what Scott meant.

Perhaps Decker never was court-martialled and that's what Scotty meant by "untried".

 

[HaventGotALife]

Thus the contradiction. Decker can't be both "an untried Captain" (in Scott's words) and the captain since the day of Kirk's promotion. In the latter case, he'd have been captain of an active ship for the entire year before the refit began, and thus qualified not only to supervise the refit but to be the captain afterward. The latter case makes more sense; the former would require a young commander, whether recommended by Kirk or not, to have accepted the captaincy of a ship that would be out of service for a year, followed by 18 months of refit.

He can be capable and in need of seasoning, unable to prove his mettle until he is in the situations Kirk faced over and over again. Experience, not bad.

The fact is, he never would've entered the cloud and he was proven right when Ilia died, but proven wrong because they solved the mission by entering the cloud. My point? It is nuance, not contradiction.

 

[Christopher]

The fact is, he never would've entered the cloud

As I've said, I'm not convinced of that. As first officer, it was his job to be a check on the captain and point out the potential negatives of his plans. If he'd been the captain instead, his responsibilities and perspective would've been different, so he could very well have been the one who chose to enter the cloud while his first officer (whoever that would've been -- Sulu?) was the one advising against it.

 

[Tenacity]

while his first officer (whoever that would've been -- Sulu?) was the one advising against it.

Commander Sonak?

 

[Christopher]

Commander Sonak?

The film only said he was appointed as science officer, not first officer. (Realistically, first officer is enough of a full-time responsibility that it would leave no room for another job. Spock could pull it off, but he was Spock.)

Also, it's unclear whether Sonak would even be alive in the scenario where Decker commands the V'Ger mission. I'm inclined to think that Kirk's decision to rush the launch contributed to the fatal transporter accident, and I suggested in Ex Machina that his demotion of Decker may have distracted Scott at a crucial moment so that he wasn't able to warn the transporter room in time. So if Kirk hadn't usurped the ship, Sonak might have lived, but it's hard to say for sure.

 

[Discofan]

The film only said he was appointed as science officer, not first officer. (Realistically, first officer is enough of a full-time responsibility that it would leave no room for another job. Spock could pull it off, but he was Spock.)

Also, it's unclear whether Sonak would even be alive in the scenario where Decker commands the V'Ger mission. I'm inclined to think that Kirk's decision to rush the launch contributed to the fatal transporter accident, and I suggested in Ex Machina that his demotion of Decker may have distracted Scott at a crucial moment so that he wasn't able to warn the transporter room in time. So if Kirk hadn't usurped the ship, Sonak might have lived, but it's hard to say for sure.

But given how touch and go it was with V'Ger, maybe they would all be dead if Decker was the one in charge. Note that he was often against the decisions taken by Kirk, which eventually saved the day.

 

[Workbee]

As I've said, I'm not convinced of that. As first officer, it was his job to be a check on the captain and point out the potential negatives of his plans. If he'd been the captain instead, his responsibilities and perspective would've been different, so he could very well have been the one who chose to enter the cloud while his first officer (whoever that would've been -- Sulu?) was the one advising against it.

This very issue has come up a few times over the years. How would Decker have performed as Captain? I question whether Roddenberry, Livingston or Wise knew the answer. The character Decker was created for Phase II, not TMP. For phase II, instead of being demoted so the more experienced Kirk could assume command, Decker was pulled away from his soon to be command of the USS Boston by Kirk for the Vejer mission because of Deckers skills and abilities. Decker’s command readiness (or lack there of) was not even a factor. Instead of usurping command from Decker, Kirk reluctant assumes command because the captain assigned to the Enterprise (not Decker) is too far away to arrive in time. A subtle difference for the plot of the episode but one that creates a much different dynamic between Kirk and Decker. While his character had yet to b fleshed out, think it is needed t unreasonable to assume phase 2 Decker would have performed well.

TMP Decker on the other hand, had an altered backstory because of the way the plot had been streamlined. With Livingston already on the fence on whether the character would even be needed for TMP, and the decision to “redshirt” Decker for sake of the story, is doubtful that Livingston and Roddenberry invested much effort to work out details of his command approach, personality and ability. With the phase 2 plans for his character discarded, I would imagine they just wrote him as a moderately advaserial first officer. The only thing we see Decker in command of in the film is the repair of the transporter backup crystal.

Most of this comes from reading the draft of In Thy Image. https://www.scribd.com/doc/268211507/Star-Trek-Phase-II-In-Thy-Image-1977-10-20-Rough-Draft

I have been meaning to read TMOSTTMP - would be curious if it talks much about Decker’s character

 

[Christopher]

But given how touch and go it was with V'Ger, maybe they would all be dead if Decker was the one in charge.

Again, "maybe" is the point. The question is, did Kirk's presence definitely make a difference? Can we point to anything he did that clearly, unambiguously saved the day, something that nobody else could've done? If the most we can say is "Decker might not have succeeded," then that's too vague and hypothetical.

Note that he was often against the decisions taken by Kirk, which eventually saved the day.

As I said, questioning a captain's plans and pointing out their potential problems is a first officer's job. A first officer needs to be a check on the captain's judgment, someone who can offer a second opinion and suggest alternatives, rather than just being a yes man. So we can't really say for sure that Decker's objections to Kirk's plans were a function of the man's own personality rather than the post he was in.

I have been meaning to read TMOSTTMP - would be curious if it talks much about Decker’s character

It does reprint a memo Roddenberry wrote about the character's personality and backstory, among others. One interesting bit is that Decker was sort of a New Age type, interested in transcendentalism and higher consciousness, which was the real reason he was eager to merge with V'Ger and ascend to new planes of existence (and also the reason he was drawn to Ilia and the Deltans' spiritually evolved culture). Since that was cut from the film, Decker's reasons for his final decision are unclear, and it seems he mainly does it to be with Ilia.

 

[Mysterion]

if they knew what they know now, it would be loud fan noises, hot sauce stains on the galley walls, every square inch of stowable space crammed with stuff going back 10 years..(and supposedly, in the case of Mir, pinups on the bulkheads)

Look no further than the sets for Nostromo in Alien. Or the Millennium Falcon in Star Wars. Other films were already doing the "lived in spacecraft" look by the time TMP arrived.

 

[Tenacity]

The only thing Decker definitely would have done differently would be bringing McCoy aboard, but it's hard to see how that would have made much difference.

 

[Workbee]

It does reprint a memo Roddenberry wrote about the character's personality and backstory, among others. One interesting bit is that Decker was sort of a New Age type, interested in transcendentalism and higher consciousness, which was the real reason he was eager to merge with V'Ger and ascend to new planes of existence (and also the reason he was drawn to Ilia and the Deltans' spiritually evolved culture). Since that was cut from the film, Decker's reasons for his final decision are unclear, and it seems he mainly does it to be with Ilia.

Interesting! I remember reading that in the novelization. Do you happen to know the date that memo was written? IIRC, they were still trying to figure out the ending until late in the shoot (according to Checkov’s Enterprise) I am curious if the New Age stuff was baked in to the character from the beginning, or was the result of scrambling to figure out how to make the character work in TMP. Or was it added at the 11th hour to give Decker a motivation for sacrificing himself?

The new age stuff seems to tie into things that In Thy Image showed with people on earth to set up how the “Tasha” probe became enlightened to the value of human life at the climax. But that was when vejer simply went on it’s way at the end instead of ascending to a higher level of existence. In a way, TMP is kind of unwieldy with the number of character motivations and arcs it is trying to manage. There were too many pieces they were trying to fit together after too many changes. They wrote themselves into suck a corner with Kirk and Decker’s relationship that the only way they could deal with it was essentially having Kirk and Decker “just grow up and get on with the mission” until Decker gets “killed off”. We never see whether Kirk feels any regret, guilt or anything for stealing Decker’s command. It just kind of gets glossed over on the ending wrap up TOS style.

 

[Christopher]

Interesting! I remember reading that in the novelization. Do you happen to know the date that memo was written? IIRC, they were still trying to figure out the ending until late in the shoot (according to Checkov’s Enterprise) I am curious if the New Age stuff was baked in to the character from the beginning, or was the result of scrambling to figure out how to make the character work in TMP. Or was it added at the 11th hour to give Decker a motivation for sacrificing himself?

I don't know the exact date, but it was definitely in the pre-production phase. Scenes addressing it were in the script but were cut out. It seems they had a clear idea of the character all along; it's just that much of it got lost in the shuffle.

 

[Nyotarules]

But given how touch and go it was with V'Ger, maybe they would all be dead if Decker was the one in charge. Note that he was often against the decisions taken by Kirk, which eventually saved the day.

They would all be dead if they followed Kirk's orders in the wormhole before they even encountered V'Ger. Decker saved the ship.