The end of Kurn (brainwashing)

[Prax]

There's assisted suicide in some states now. The state I'm aware of, it involves a terminal illness, at least two doctors' signatures, and the ill person must be able to do the key action themselves - an assistant can prepare the liquid and put it in the patient's hand, but the patient has to put it to their lips and drink it themselves.

That's essentially what Worf was to do. He hands Kurn the weapon. Kurn stabs himself, hands it back, then Worf wipes the blood on his sleeve. Klingon howls follow.

As for terminal illness, the practice of disgraced officers falling on their sword(or pistol) has been practiced throughout human history, particularly among western nations, and into the 20th century.

 

[Grendelsbayne]

Worf is terrible, you know this, right? I mean, as far as behavior, in both series, he's a jerk. He snarls at anyone attempting to befriend him. He interferes in Odo's investigations. He hates "the ferengi bartender," lives off the station, tries to kill his brother, shows his son death, and the back of his hand, murders Gowron, kills Duras, tries to commit suicide. He loves suggesting Phasers be fired, but man, if those shields are down...And he calls off a marriage over candles. You sided with you stepmom over your wife, and tortured your friends. Why they're your friends, one will never know.

I personally agree with several of the things in this list, but really you're trying way too hard to find things to hate him for.

Almost all of the characters disliked/hated Quark - and honestly, if you look past the comic relief aspect that makes him endearing to the audience, Quark is largely a terrible person, at least as much as, probably moreso than Worf. Gowron's death wasn't murder under any reasonable definition and it was actually entirely necessary to save lives, Kurn specifically asked Worf to kill him, wanting to commit suicide doesn't make someone a terrible person, neither does being stressed out about a wedding not going the way you expected it to (and the wedding did happen, it's not like he actually threw the whole relationship away for the candles), and Duras literally just murdered an innocent woman who Worf loved.

And what the hell does 'lives off the station' even mean? Are you talking about when he slept on the Defiant? What's wrong with that? Its nobody else's business where he sleeps as long as its not in the corridors.

 

[Prax]

I personally agree with several of the things in this list, but really you're trying way too hard to find things to hate him for.

Almost all of the characters disliked/hated Quark - and honestly, if you look past the comic relief aspect that makes him endearing to the audience, Quark is largely a terrible person, at least as much as, probably moreso than Worf. Gowron's death wasn't murder under any reasonable definition and it was actually entirely necessary to save lives, Kurn specifically asked Worf to kill him, wanting to commit suicide doesn't make someone a terrible person, neither does being stressed out about a wedding not going the way you expected it to (and the wedding did happen, it's not like he actually threw the whole relationship away for the candles), and Duras literally just murdered an innocent woman who Worf loved.

And what the hell does 'lives off the station' even mean? Are you talking about when he slept on the Defiant? What's wrong with that? Its nobody else's business where he sleeps as long as its not in the corridors.

Tongue n' Cheek

 

[Tenacity]

On VOY Janeway wiped a portion of the Doctor's memory without his permission and apparently briefed the crew on matters not to be discussed with him.

No he wasn't turned into another person, but it was done without his consent.

 

[Bad Thoughts]

On VOY Janeway wiped a portion of the Doctor's memory without his permission and apparently briefed the crew on matters not to be discussed with him.

No he wasn't turned into another person, but it was done without his consent.

Let's not forget that Picard ordered the procedure twice (at least) without the patients' consent.

 

[Jedman67]

It seemed to me that it was a cop out when Worf used Sisko's refusal to allow Worf to make any more attempts at Kurn's life as an excuse not to make any more attempts. And it also seemed, to me, a double standard as well. Worf talks a big game about "it's a good day to die" and all that Klingon crap, but when it comes to him and his family he seems to have a double standard. Using Worf's own standards, I thought Worf acted dishonorably, ultimately.

The writers wanted to show that Worf had "become" too human; he lived for too long among humans and had not immersed himself in Klingon Culture.
Worf has no problem killing in fair combat, or being killed in combat, but he came to view the ritual killing as suicide. He *could not* kill Kurn.

Worf is terrible, you know this, right? I mean, as far as behavior, in both series, he's a jerk. He snarls at anyone attempting to befriend him. He interferes in Odo's investigations. He hates "the ferengi bartender," lives off the station, tries to kill his brother, shows his son death, and the back of his hand, murders Gowron, kills Duras, tries to commit suicide. He loves suggesting Phasers be fired, but man, if those shields are down...And he calls off a marriage over candles. You sided with you stepmom over your wife, and tortured your friends. Why they're your friends, one will never know.

1. He killed Duras in fair combat to avenge Duras murdering K'Ehleyr. This was perfectly legal under Klingon law, and since it took place on a klingon ship and not in Federation jurisdiction, Picard was only able to reprimand him.
2. Calling off a wedding over candles??? He married Jadzia and considered K'Ehleyr his wife, albeit only briefly. Getting cold feet and overcoming it is perfectly normal.
3. He did a poor job raising Alexander. He tried to show him the klingon way; but as a child living among humans he had no interest in klingon tradition. As a military man he found it hard to take Alexander with him, so sent him to live with his adoptive grandparents for a few years.
When Alexander came to DS9 as a klingon officer, it took some time for them to reestablish a relationship after years of hard feelings. This is normal.
4. It took Worf a few episodes to adapt to his new job on DS9; no longer being a security officer. Shit happens, ya know?
5. He attempted to fulfill the wishes of his brother who wanted to die at the hands of a warrior; as he had no life left in the Klingon Empire.
6. Worf killing Gowron was not murder. Legally, anyone could challenge the chancellor or die trying. Worf won, and thereby saved the Empire.

 

[HaventGotALife]

I was only half-serious. Word is beloved, and I poked some fun at him. I was in a mood. Lolz.

 

[Kor]

Maybe they should have given Kurn aome reconstructive surgery. Someone is going to recognize him sooner or later. Probably sooner.

He's supposedly the visible leader of a famous Klingon family, a (former)member of the "high council," of the nobility, etc, etc, etc.

What happens then...

Bashir did alter his cranial ridges.

Kor

 

[Tenacity]

He killed Duras in fair combat to avenge Duras murdering K'Ehleyr. This was perfectly legal under Klingon law, and since it took place on a klingon ship and not in Federation jurisdiction, Picard was only able to reprimand him

Picard was only able to reprimand him.

I always wonder what the substance of the reprimand was, Picard would of had to of put down something official. Leaving the ship without permission seems little thin.

 

[kkt]

That's essentially what Worf was to do. He hands Kurn the weapon. Kurn stabs himself, hands it back, then Worf wipes the blood on his sleeve. Klingon howls follow.

As for terminal illness, the practice of disgraced officers falling on their sword(or pistol) has been practiced throughout human history, particularly among western nations, and into the 20th century.

No, Worf was to stab Kurn. That's what he did, but Dax and Bashir were able to save Kurn despite wounds that would have been fatal without immediate treatment.

 

[Jedman67]

Picard was only able to reprimand him.

I always wonder what the substance of the reprimand was, Picard would of had to of put down something official. Leaving the ship without permission seems little thin.

"Dear Commandment, Starfleet:
I am formally putting a notation in the record of Lieutenant Worf a reprimand for the legal murder of Duras, Son of Targ, aboard the IKS Vorn; after challenging Duras to one on one combat.
Sincerely yours,
Capt. Jean luc Picard, CO, USS Enterprise-D"

 

[Kor]

Picard was only able to reprimand him.

I always wonder what the substance of the reprimand was, Picard would of had to of put down something official. Leaving the ship without permission seems little thin.

Well, I believe AWOL is a pretty serious charge in real-life armies and navies.

Kor

 

[Prax]

No, Worf was to stab Kurn. That's what he did, but Dax and Bashir were able to save Kurn despite wounds that would have been fatal without immediate treatment.

You are right. They must have changed the ritual, because they describe it differently on TNG, as a suicide. It looks like DS9 contradicts this further because Kurn says suicide is a sin, and ticket to hell.

 

[Kor]

I thought the Hegh'bat ritual from TNG's "ethics" was for somebody who was physically incapacitated and therefore wouldn't be able to be an effective warrior anymore.
Kurn's situation was different, therefore calling for Mauk-to'Vor instead.

Kor

 

[NewHeavensNewEarth]

We don't know that Worf doesn't tell Kurn about the procedure. All we know is that Kurn gave Worf power over his life/power of attorney, and Kurn expressed concisely his desire to be with Klingons even if in death.

Even if I were to give my own brother power-of-attorney over my life, that doesn't mean I would want to wake up one morning on the other side of the world with a different name, and absolutely no memory of my past. He wouldn't be doing me any favors by doing that, and it would be terrifying for pretty much anybody.

In past examples of having memory erased (mainly in TNG), it was for the purpose of erasing specific short-term memories of specific things - not the erasure of the individual. This stands out among them all for that reason (among other reasons).

 

[Bad Thoughts]

In past examples of having memory erased (mainly in TNG), it was for the purpose of erasing specific short-term memories of specific things - not the erasure of the individual. This stands out among them all for that reason (among other reasons).

How is that less against their will?

 

[kkt]

"Dear Commandment, Starfleet:
I am formally putting a notation in the record of Lieutenant Worf a reprimand for the legal murder of Duras, Son of Targ, aboard the IKS Vorn; after challenging Duras to one on one combat.
Sincerely yours,
Capt. Jean luc Picard, CO, USS Enterprise-D"

A legal murder is a contradiction in terms. If it's the legal ending of another person's life (self defense, war, execution in accordance with the law) it's a homicide.

 

[Grendelsbayne]

A legal murder is a contradiction in terms. If it's the legal ending of another person's life (self defense, war, execution in accordance with the law) it's a homicide.

Klingicide.

 

[Spot261]

I agree, the memory wipe solution should present enormous ethical problems for Bashir and Sisko and doesn't even seem very in character for Klingon culture. Why is a young able-bodied Klingon like Kurn not in the Klingon Defense Forces? Why doesn't he volunteer, and raise his hand for every suicide mission if he wants death with honor?

I'd say it's not in character for the TNG Klingons, but TOS and DSC seem to suggest another side to their nature. The mind sifter and

Spoiler

the Voq/Ash duality

show them very willing to employ mind control/washing techniques.

 

[Tenacity]

Well, I believe AWOL is a pretty serious charge in real-life armies and navies.

Given the amount of time Worf was gone, probably less than one hour, no. If he didn't miss being on shift it wouldn't have been considered AWOL.