How Many Starships?

[johnnybear]

The USS Republic and the USS Kongo but the USS Farragut might have been decommissioned after the Cloud attack! Same as the USS Horizon from Piece of The Action wasn't a new ship in the fleet! So that's our full thirteen!
JB

 

[Timo]

In any case, Cochrane seems to be asking about humans from Earth (of whom he is one, the "of AC" bit notwithstanding), and Kirk seems to be answering his question: humans are expanding, and finding "life" which is what makes up much of the UFP and its enemies. This other life is also doing stuff of its own, but this isn't really of interest to Cochrane or Kirk...

Having Earth humans on a thousand worlds isn't much of an undertaking: considering the worlds we see, it would probably involve just tens of thousands of humans, or perhaps hundreds of thousands. Three guys sitting on a mine at the butt end of nowhere, twenty digging in a cave, a couple of dozen farming a planet of their own, two eggheads looking through a telescope on an outpost... It really doesn't take much manpower or effort or infrastructure, not when travel is cheap and accommodations at the destination tend to be Class M.

And a planet that has a handful of humans also having a handful of Tellarites, Andorians and Vulcans wouldn't detract from Kirk's statement. Nor would a handful of humans being on Vulcan or Argelius or some other already populated place.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Dukhat]

Since the SS Valiant was exploring 200 years earlier, it was probably not a Federation Starfleet starship like the USS Enterprise.

I was referring to the U.S.S. Valiant that was destroyed at Eminiar 50 years before TOS, not the ship that crossed the Galactic Barrier.

So the Archon was a starship type of space ship. Whether it was already a Federation Starfleet starship is unknown. It was more likely to be Starfleet ship since it was only half as far in the past as the first Valiant. The construction class is not mentioned.

And since the term 'starship' in TOS seemed to denote the same type of ship as the Enterprise (if not the actual same class), I conjectured that the Archon was indeed a Starfleet vessel of a class different from the Enterprise.

The dialog is unclear whether Oxmyx recognizes the name "United federation of Planets" or supposes that since Kirk is from outer space he must be from the same outfit as the Horizon.

Oxmyx making the "same outfit" comment (and Kirk agreeing with him) also implies that the Horizon was a Starfleet vessel. Additionally, Kirk's comment that the Enterprise won't land implies that the Horizon had landing capability and possibly the entire ship landed on the planet, which the Constitution class absolutely could not do.

It looks like the USS Carolina is a real ship in starfleet. But what type of ship and what construction class isn't specified.

Yes. In TOS at least, it seemed like any vessel referred to as a starship or with a "U.S.S." in front of the name, was implied to be a ship like the Enterprise, either of the same or a different class. But most definitely a Federation/Starfleet non-civilian ship. Sure, they are all subject to interpretation based on the dialogue, but I believe the intent was that all the ships listed above were from the 'same outfit' as the Enterprise.

 

[MAGolding]

In any case, Cochrane seems to be asking about humans from Earth (of whom he is one, the "of AC" bit notwithstanding), and Kirk seems to be answering his question: humans are expanding, and finding "life" which is what makes up much of the UFP and its enemies. This other life is also doing stuff of its own, but this isn't really of interest to Cochrane or Kirk...

Having Earth humans on a thousand worlds isn't much of an undertaking: considering the worlds we see, it would probably involve just tens of thousands of humans, or perhaps hundreds of thousands. Three guys sitting on a mine at the butt end of nowhere, twenty digging in a cave, a couple of dozen farming a planet of their own, two eggheads looking through a telescope on an outpost... It really doesn't take much manpower or effort or infrastructure, not when travel is cheap and accommodations at the destination tend to be Class M.

And a planet that has a handful of humans also having a handful of Tellarites, Andorians and Vulcans wouldn't detract from Kirk's statement. Nor would a handful of humans being on Vulcan or Argelius or some other already populated place.

Timo Saloniemi

In Latin the suffix cus means "of", so Germanicus would be "of Germany". Cus was used in victory titles, so Germanicus would mean "Of German fame", "Germany conqueror", "Germany victor", etc.

I always alternated between "Of Alpha Centauri" meaning "from Alpha Centauri" or meaning "Of Alpha Centauri fame", and thus between thinking that Zefram Cochrane was Alpha Centaurian or Earth Human.

I guess that if Zefram Cochrane was "Of Alpha Centauri fame" he would be an Earth man who not only "discovered the space warp" but also led the first expedition to Alpha Centauri.

Cochrane is certainly from Earth in any fictional universe which includes First Contact and Star Trek Enterprise.

 

[ChallengerHK]

Right, or (if I'm remembering correctly) Star Fleet Battles.

Star Fleet Battles uses the FJ Tech Manual as a basis (and indeed that's where they got their license), but they've actually avoided the scale of the FJ lists. If I recall correctly they have more than 12 Connies, but definitely not the 100+ of the Tech Manual.

 

[Noname Given]

In TOS it is mentioned several times that there are only 12 Starships in Starfleet. These are supposed to be the frontline vessels that protect outposts, colonies, planets and other smaller Starfleet vessels. In a couple of episodes it is established that no other Starships are in the area to assist the Enterprise. My thought is that there should be many more Starships to cover the immense amount of space just in our galaxy alone. What do you think?

All that mentioned is that there are "12 like it in the Fleet" - IE 12 Starship/Constitution Class vessels (13 if Kirk was not counting the 1701 in with the other 12 ). However the Fleet itself consists of a variety of vessels of different types and classes.

 

[ZapBrannigan]

I always alternated between "Of Alpha Centauri" meaning "from Alpha Centauri" or meaning "Of Alpha Centauri fame", and thus between thinking that Zefram Cochrane was Alpha Centaurian or Earth Human.

I guess that if Zefram Cochrane was "Of Alpha Centauri fame" he would be an Earth man who not only "discovered the space warp" but also led the first expedition to Alpha Centauri.

Cochrane is certainly from Earth in any fictional universe which includes First Contact and Star Trek Enterprise.

Agreed. It's like Lawrence of Arabia and Scott of the Antarctic. He isn't from there.

 

[Phaser Two]

Star Fleet Battles uses the FJ Tech Manual as a basis (and indeed that's where they got their license), but they've actually avoided the scale of the FJ lists. If I recall correctly they have more than 12 Connies, but definitely not the 100+ of the Tech Manual.

Ah, I never knew that. Thanks!

 

[johnnybear]

I gathered that too that Zephram Cochrane might have been the first man to land on Alpha Centauri and so became associated with the place by that and not that he was originally from there! But that could have been because of First Contact and the original idea back in 1967 may have been that he was from that planet 4.3 light years away!
JB

 

[JonnyQuest037]

I always alternated between "Of Alpha Centauri" meaning "from Alpha Centauri" or meaning "Of Alpha Centauri fame", and thus between thinking that Zefram Cochrane was Alpha Centaurian or Earth Human.

I guess that if Zefram Cochrane was "Of Alpha Centauri fame" he would be an Earth man who not only "discovered the space warp" but also led the first expedition to Alpha Centauri.

Agreed. It's like Lawrence of Arabia and Scott of the Antarctic. He isn't from there.

Yeah, that's what I think, too. Cochrane's dialogue in "Metamorphosis" bears this out. Practically the first thing out of his mouth is his asking if Kirk & company are Earth people:

COCHRANE: Hello! Are you real? I mean, I'm not imagining you, am I?
KIRK: We're real enough.
COCHRANE: You speak English. Earth people?

Interestingly, Cochrane instantly recognizes Spock as a Vulcan, indicating that humans and Vulcans have known of each other for at least 150 years, the date of his disappearance:

KIRK: I'm Captain James T. Kirk, commanding the starship Enterprise. (they shake hands) This is my first officer Mister Spock.
COCHRANE: You're a Vulcan, aren't you?
SPOCK: Correct.

And when McCoy scans Cochrane, he says:

MCCOY: He's human, Jim. Everything checks out perfectly.

Cochrane even makes a Bible reference at the end, indicating that he expects the love between him and the Companion/Nancy to bear fruit of some kind in the future. But it also indicates that culturally, he's from Earth:

COCHRANE: I can't take her away from here. If I do, she'll die. If I leave her, she'll die of loneliness. I owe everything to her. I can't leave her. I love her. Is that surprising?
SPOCK: Not coming from a human being. You are, after all, essentially irrational.
KIRK: Think it over, Mister Cochrane. There's a whole galaxy out there waiting to honour you.
COCHRANE: I have honours enough.
SPOCK: But you will age, both of you. There will be no immortality. You'll both grow old here and finally die.
COCHRANE: That's been happening to men and women for a long time. I've got the feeling it's one of the pleasanter things about being human, as long as you grow old together.
KIRK: Are you sure?
COCHRANE: There's plenty of water here. The climate's good for growing things. I might try to plant a fig tree. A man's entitled to that, isn't he? It isn't gratitude, Captain. Now that I see her, touch her, I know that I love her. We'll have a lot of years together. They'll be happy ones.

So yeah, Cochrane's definitely a human being from Earth. The "Zephram Cochrane of Alpha Centauri" thing is similar to "Lawrence of Arabia." Alpha Centauri is just the place he's most associated with.

 

[Timo]

All of this jibes pretty well with what we saw in ST:FC: if Cochrane is in it for the big buck, he's quite likely to stack up on liquid courage and warp to Alpha Centauri the first chance he gets, in order to both give best possible visibility to his sales article and to stake a claim like none before!

I wonder how many warpships there were in 2064... Did Cochrane have a sales success, or did he go altruist out of fear of further cyborg attacks and teach everybody how to build a warp core? Friendship 1 and the Valiant don't stand out as unique, and the latter isn't even credited with being first.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Ronald Held]

How public was the design for Cochrane's warp drive starting in 2063?

 

[JonnyQuest037]

All of this jibes pretty well with what we saw in ST:FC...

Well, agree to disagree. The Cochrane we see in "Metamorphosis" is a modest, moral man who is so proper he's initially horrified when he learns that the alien Companion is in love with him. The Cochrane we see in First Contact is... not.

Good movie, but the characterizations don't really seem like the same person, even accounting for the difference of several decades.

 

[Timo]

Which is sort of the point. Our heroes don't recognize either version of Cochrane very well, but they have more difficulty with the movie one - indicating he changed a lot. And the movie provides the hows and whys.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Sgt_G]

Star Fleet Battles uses the FJ Tech Manual as a basis (and indeed that's where they got their license), but they've actually avoided the scale of the FJ lists. If I recall correctly they have more than 12 Connies, but definitely not the 100+ of the Tech Manual.

They made a list of ship names as background data: http://www.starfleetgames.com/documents/Fed NCC/Fed_NCC_Numbers.pdf

Extracting the 1700s, I count 28 ships in the class (includes Command Cruisers). However, the game Federation & Empire allows for a much larger number to be built.

1700 A CONSTITUTION-CLASS HEAVY CRUISERS (c) ADB 2007
1700 Constitution (CA)
1701 Enterprise (CA)
1701A Enterprise (CX)
1702 Farragut (CA, converted to CVS 1960)
1703 Lexington (CC)
1704 Yorktown (CA)
1705 Excalibur (CC)
1706 Exeter (CA)
1707 Hood (CA)
1708 Intrepid (CA)
1709 Valiant (CA)
1710 Kongo (CC)
1711 Potemkin (CA)
1712 Bon Homme Richard (CC)
1713 Monitor (CA)
1714 Hornet (CA)
1715 Merimac (CA)
1716 Endeavor (CA)
1717 Defiance (CA)
1718 Excelsior (CA)
1719 Eagle (CF)
1720 Lafayette (CC)
1721 Wasp (CA)
1722 El Dorado (CA)
1723 Ari (CA)
1724 Saratoga (CA)
1725 Tori (CA)
1726 Krieger (CA)
1727 Essex (CC)
(c) ADB 2007

 

[johnnybear]

I think you forgot Matt Decker's ship!
JB

 

[ChallengerHK]

Extracting the 1700s, I count 28 ships in the class (includes Command Cruisers). However, the game Federation & Empire allows for a much larger number to be built.

I asked him about this in the 80s. His answer was that there was no need for more ships.

1701A Enterprise (CX)

That's very interesting. Doesn't he keep saying that his agreement/contract doesn't allow him to use anything from the movies?

 

[Sgt_G]

there was no need for more ships.

Right. No need for more because this list is intended for background data for fiction stories. The only place they are allowed to refer to the 1701 / 1701A is in the registry list. They are not allowed to use the Enterprise or Kirk/Spock/McCoy in any fiction (see second link below for how I explain that one away).

 

[MAGolding]

I asked him about this in the 80s. His answer was that there was no need for more ships.



That's very interesting. Doesn't he keep saying that his agreement/contract doesn't allow him to use anything from the movies?

Who was "him"?

 

[Sgt_G]

Steve Cole, designer of Star Fleet Battles.