Monster maroons were plagiarized?
- Thread starter XCV330
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I think you are seeing things. The only similarities are what might be a black belt on a red jacket. As for the shoulder straps: A. there are 2 of them and B, they aren't part of the jacket, they are clearly part of the equipment he is wearing. Plus we know the color of the Maroons was dictated by what the TMP costumes could be dyed to.
It could be coincidental. The thought process behind the uniform design for TWOK is described on Memory Alpha:
https://memory-alpha.fandom.com/wiki/Star_Trek_II:_The_Wrath_of_Khan#Costumes
Meyer wanted something naval, resembling the uniforms from the film The Prisoner of Zenda. The red color was retained after testing out dyeing the TMP uniforms in different colors. Not sure about that shoulder strap.
Kor
https://memory-alpha.fandom.com/wiki/Star_Trek_II:_The_Wrath_of_Khan#Costumes
Meyer wanted something naval, resembling the uniforms from the film The Prisoner of Zenda. The red color was retained after testing out dyeing the TMP uniforms in different colors. Not sure about that shoulder strap.
Kor
They always looked like Mountie or Buckingham Palace guard costumes to me.
Inspiration is not plagiarism. Inspiration is not plagiarism. For Pete's sake, fandom, learn what the word means before you accuse people of crimes!!!!!!!!
I can't tell if you're being pedantic or overly dramatic. The design is not inspired. It's a copy. Look at the shoulder strap insignia.
Creators accidentally land on similar ideas all the time. It's extremely hard to avoid, because we're all working within the same cultural framework and the same pool of precedents. Plagiarism is a very serious charge, a literal crime. It's not an accusation to be thrown around without evidence, especially since most such similarities do happen by accident.
And even if it is a copy, borrowing from an inspiration is not theft either. It's just being derivative.
As for your specific charge, you need to look more closely -- there are two metallic shoulder straps, not just one, and the "insignia" appears to be some kind of electrical greeblie wired to the belt. Also, the design is clearly based on earlier military uniforms from history, just as the TWOK uniform designs were. They're both drawing on the same traditions.
And even if it is a copy, borrowing from an inspiration is not theft either. It's just being derivative.
As for your specific charge, you need to look more closely -- there are two metallic shoulder straps, not just one, and the "insignia" appears to be some kind of electrical greeblie wired to the belt. Also, the design is clearly based on earlier military uniforms from history, just as the TWOK uniform designs were. They're both drawing on the same traditions.
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Possibly but I doubt it. I haven't seen any real world uniform that is as close a match as much as the Amazing Stories cover. I'm not saying the uniform creator did it purposefully. He may have seen it when younger, got in his head, or for all I know someone higher up in production showed him a copy and said "I want this"
Cool it with the calling me ignorant, btw
Cool it with the calling me ignorant, btw
I once wrote the music for a song, and I was particularly pleased with it, thought it sounded like it could be a hit with the right music. I handed it to my wife... and she pulled it up on YouTube. There is nothing new under the sun.
You may wish to refer to my Memory Alpha link above. The designer didn't just come up with the TWOK uniform in its final form all at once. There are also a couple of notable differences; that gold sleeve thing on the Amazing Stories outfit, and the thick black piping on the back of the TWOK uniforms.
Kor
Yeah,old C’pn Jimmy really rocked that little helmet too!
funny you should mention that
There are no insignia on the shoulder straps. It's some kind of device with a wire sticking down from it. And has been pointed out above, those straps are metal and not part of the uniform.
funny you should mention that
Those helmets were just a carryover from TMP, where they were used by security guards who were absolutely not wearing monster maroons in that film.
Sometimes people will just see what they want to see.
Same guy designed TMP uniforms, and the maroons, I think
They always looked like Mountie or Buckingham Palace guard costumes to me.
I'm no big fan of the Monster Maroons. They look OK as a full dress uniform. But as a daily service, i.e. duty, uniform they're ridiculous.
I've always thought that as well. Maybe on big important ships like the Enterprise or Excelsior, where an image needs to be projected and maintained, but for the vast majority of the fleet they always did seem really impractical to me. Add to that the fact they don't change into something else when going before the President and Council of the Federation, surely something like that would mean full dress uniform (especially when facing charges).
That's not much to hang a charge of plagiarism on. You have a coat of a similar color with a black belt and that's about it. The one on the magazine has a stand-up collar with some kind of wing design, while Fletcher's jacket design has no collar at all. The contrasting back seam trim is not there. The shoulder pieces, as others have pointed out, are metal and look more like some kind of equipment. The cuffs are totally different. We don't even know if the jacket in the picture is single- or double-breasted, but with the shoulder pieces and matching cuffs it doesn't appear to carry the strong asymmetrical cues of Fletcher's design.
Great point.
In your opinion. As others in the thread have pointed out, there are some coincidental similarities in that one picture, and that's it. When Robert Fletcher got the assignment to redesign the Starfleet uniforms for TWOK, I doubt that his first move was to break out the 42-year old issues of Amazing Stories. He designed something new, because that's what costume designers do.
Then it's not plagiarism. Plagiarism is conscious.
Here it is in high-rez (LINK) and you can see the equipment on the shoulders very clearly. It's from Amazing Stories Magazine, Vol.13, #5, May 1939. Here's the whole issue on the Internet Archive (LINK).
Seriously, it's a red shirt with a blue collar with white trim around the top of the collar, gold cuffs and a golden wing design on the collar. At that angle at a glance it maybe reminds you of the monster maroons, but it's a superficial similarity.
Seriously, it's a red shirt with a blue collar with white trim around the top of the collar, gold cuffs and a golden wing design on the collar. At that angle at a glance it maybe reminds you of the monster maroons, but it's a superficial similarity.
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