Spoilers Avengers: Endgame grade and discussion thread

[Doc Mugatu]

People who do not fear equality would not have batted an eyelid at That Scene.

Disagree. To "not bat an eye" at the scene would be to not have an emotional reaction to it (either in the affirmative or negative). I thought it was a great scene and as such I responded to it very positively. For one thing, the USA is no longer the primary audience for the studios big tent pole films therefore the image of minority (especially women) empowerment and inclusion is very important (and good business).

Honestly, I do not know how well an all-female lead superhero movie would do (prejudices being what they are), however, I would very much love to see one get made and feel it is imperative that one does. My only fear is the studios have it written as if it were a bunch of men then cast women. To avoid that I would go further and say I would hope it would be written by women as well as directed by one (In addition to Brie Larson, Karen Gillan would also love to direct a MCU film).

 

[Paul Weaver]

Has anyone got anything to say about the other 179 minutes of the film, or is that awesome hero shot the only thing worthy of talking?

We got kicked out of the cinema before the end credits which was annoying.

I was impressed how well society seems to have worked post snap. I guess that internationally known figures like Cap who could explain what had happened would have helped, how the threat has gone, and how Earth was avenged, would have limited the panic and mass rioting in the cities.

Was Maria Hill at the funeral?

 

[Awesome Possum]

Cap mentioned Thanos at the group therapy session, I assumed the general population basically knew what happened by that point.

Maria Hill was there. She’s towards the back.

 

[Doc Mugatu]

That's not equal at all. That's revenge casting and trying to shove views down people's throats. Female heroes aren't owed a thing. Neither are heroes of color. I could only imagine the reaction to people saying, "yes! White males! White male power! We need more white males!" Liberals would cry.

I would hope more than just the "liberals" would cry. It's as if you are making your arguments in a vacuum. Folks don't need to say "Yes, white males," etc. because it is already being said in the studio boardrooms and casting departments. It's ignorant to believe it's not.

Instead of bringing affirmative action into it, how about just making good heroes without intentionally trying to show how woke they are?

What's the ratio right now to superhero films with male leads to female leads over the past 25 years? 10 years? 5 years? 1 year? Women represent about 49.556% of the world's population yet you suggest any move towards parity or even significant representation is unfounded. To deny young women the ability to see themselves on screen in positions of power, leadership and heroic stature is wrong. To deny young men the education of seeing women in such positions is to perpetuate and affirm sexism with our society and that of the worlds.

When it's organic, it's great. What happened with Arya Stark is a perfect example of that. It wasn't a staged "girl power" moment. It was organic to the story and absolutely perfect, regardless of gender.

Sure, it's always great when it feels natural (as opposed to contrived), however, that goes to the "how" and not the "who" of a story. Whether the story is character or plot driven one can start with a premise of female leads and build an "organic" story to fit.

Until writers lose the chip on their shoulders, you will never see equality.

You never want a writer who doesn't have a chip on their shoulder!

 

[Captrek]

You KNOW it's very insensitive to call them "racoons" We live in 2019, damn it.

“I’m sorry. I took it too far. I meant trash pandas.”

 

[Doc Mugatu]

Marvel already has something to base it on too.

I really hope Disney decides to introduce She-Hulk (as well as the Fantastic Four) into the MCU. I also loved when She-Hulk was a member of the F.F. for awhile.

 

[Kirk Prime]

I would hope more than just the "liberals" would cry. It's as if you are making your arguments in a vacuum. Folks don't need to say "Yes, white males," etc. because it is already being said in the studio boardrooms and casting departments. It's ignorant to believe it's not.

Actually, what is going on, even in this thread, is racism and sexism against white males, and it's just as wrong. If one can make a comment about white males, and that same comment is racist if one said it about another race, with the same hate and vitriol, that's a racist problem. Wrong is wrong.

What's the ratio right now to superhero films with male leads to female leads over the past 25 years? 10 years? 5 years? 1 year? Women represent about 49.556% of the world's population yet you suggest any move towards parity or even significant representation is unfounded. To deny young women the ability to see themselves on screen in positions of power, leadership and heroic stature is wrong. To deny young men the education of seeing women in such positions is to perpetuate and affirm sexism with our society and that of the worlds.

None of that is relevant. No one is being denied anything by having white males cast in roles that were created as white males. I have NO problem with women in positions of power on screen. No one ever said otherwise. Let it be organic rather than putting them on display on a soapbox and saying, "look--a woman! Fake feminism!"

When it's forced, it doesn't work the same. Supergirl is the most guilty of the fake feminism move. Wonder Woman didn't do that. GOT didn't do that.

You never want a writer who doesn't have a chip on their shoulder!

Then racism and sexism will never leave that person's writings.

 

[Doc Mugatu]

“I’m sorry. I took it too far. I meant trash pandas.”

Well, that's the trifecta! We now have gender, race and class brought into the discussion.

White trash panda:

 

[Awesome Possum]

Actually, what is going on, even in this thread, is racism and sexism against white males, and it's just as wrong. If one can make a comment about white males, and that same comment is racist if one said it about another race, with the same hate and vitriol, that's a racist problem. Wrong is wrong.

Except it’s not, you just keep insisting that it is. No one is saying they should stop making movies with white males, just to also make movies with other kinds of people. Wouldn’t making more movies be a good thing?

None of that is relevant. No one is being denied anything by having white males cast in roles that were created as white males. I have NO problem with women in positions of power on screen. No one ever said otherwise. Let it be organic rather than putting them on display on a soapbox and saying, "look--a woman! Fake feminism!"

When it's forced, it doesn't work the same. Supergirl is the most guilty of the fake feminism move. Wonder Woman didn't do that. GOT didn't do that.

According to you and you seem to see things that aren’t really there.

Then racism and sexism will never leave that person's writings.

What racism and sexism?

 

[ITDUDE]

Actually, what is going on, even in this thread, is racism and sexism against white males, and it's just as wrong.

It's not wrong if it's the new face of the franchise apparently:

If Brie Larson is entitled to her opinion and what she says there is ok, then so is everyone else entitled to their opinions.

Anyhow, this is my last comment about this topic in this thread. I know which way the wind is blowing, so let's all drop it.

 

[Claudia]

None of that is relevant. No one is being denied anything by having white males cast in roles that were created as white males. I have NO problem with women in positions of power on screen. No one ever said otherwise. Let it be organic rather than putting them on display on a soapbox and saying, "look--a woman! Fake feminism!"

Hm, but some roles can be recast - as you say the characters were created as white males... but they are a product of their time. And modern interpretation should reflect that.

I'm not saying it's *necessary* to recast everyone, far from it, but franchise should broaden its horizons. It depends on how it's done. If the main focus is the gender/race then clearly the characterization is somewhat lacking. I'm thinking of Starbuck or Joan Watson who are both well written characters that don't work just because they're female but because they're well-rounded. And gosh what an outcry those exchanges have been back when their series debuted respectively.

As female myself, I'd like to see more female protagonists, more females in positions of power. But I think that being overly aggressive in the depiction of that raises resentment and aggression - after all, who wants to see power taken away from them. And we see the results of that in politics every day (everywhere) where angry (old) white men shout out to other angry white men and cry about the world being taken away from them, taken over by minorities, their society being undermined by outsiders etc. And they're successful (and even convince people who aren't necessarily in their target-group).

I think being aggressive about the inclusion/advancement of females/PoC/etc is a way to raise awareness, to shout out to them/us "We hear you. Let us work together that even more can hear you." But that can only be the first step. What should follow that phase is how men and women of all races can live and work together in equality... be it in RL (which would be a blast) or in superhero movies.... where such things no longer matter.

 

[Doc Mugatu]

Actually, what is going on, even in this thread, is racism and sexism against white males, and it's just as wrong. If one can make a comment about white males, and that same comment is racist if one said it about another race, with the same hate and vitriol, that's a racist problem. Wrong is wrong.

Kirk Prime, you are holding up well under the unrelenting yoke of the white man's burden. Someone should write a lament on how hard it is to be a white man in the 21st century.

 

[Awesome Possum]

I’ll play the worlds smallest fiddle.

 

[Grendelsbayne]

It's not wrong if it's the new face of the franchise apparently:

If Brie Larson is entitled to her opinion and what she says there is ok, then so is everyone else entitled to their opinions.

Anyhow, this is my last comment about this topic in this thread. I know which way the wind is blowing, so let's all drop it.

I'll just leave this ridiculous insinuation that Larson's comment is in any way misandrist and bigoted right here, but let's all just agree to disagree, right?

Yeah, there's nothing blatantly insincere and deliberately misleading about that post. /s

PS:

Would we ask a five year old their opinion of Sin City? Would we ask an eighty year old their opinion of Dora the Explorer? In what way is it wrong to want a movie about a black girl's coming of age to be reviewed by people who understand the context of coming of age as a black girl? And where in that quote does Larson say anything to suggest that white men have no place or right to speak?

 

[Doc Mugatu]

Hm, but some roles can be recast - as you say the characters were created as white males... but they are a product of their time. And modern interpretation should reflect that.

Good point. Some are mantles, for example Captain America, Iron Man and Hawkeye. They could all easily be transferred to a female.

 

[Awesome Possum]

We’ve already seen hints of this. Hawkeye is training his daughter and she already shows promise. Pepper had her own suit and their daughter probably inherited Tony’s intelligence and could grow up to follow in her father’s footsteps. The mantle of Captain America has been passed to Sam and one day he’ll pass it on. The person may change or die, but the legacy will live on.

 

[Turtletrekker]

I really hope Disney decides to introduce She-Hulk (as well as the Fantastic Four) into the MCU. I also loved when She-Hulk was a member of the F.F. for awhile.

The rumor mill indeed has She-Hulk in development for Disney+. Given that her solo movie distribution rights are likely wrapped up in the same legal tangle with Universal that Hulk's are, a Disney+ series is likely the best we're ever going to get as far as solo efforts go. It could make for a good courtroom drama, and once introduced into the canon, there should be nothing to stop the character from appearing in other movies just like Hulk.

https://wegotthiscovered.com/tv/marvel-working-hulkshehulk-series-disney-mark-ruffalo-involved/amp/

 

[Kemaiku]

Shuri will probably end up helping Stark Industries (which may end up with a Wakandan branch) given the post second-snap chaos.

 

[Awesome Possum]

A She-Hulk series where she deals with superhero based legal issues could be fun.

 

[Turtletrekker]

We’ve already seen hints of this. Hawkeye is training his daughter and she already shows promise. Pepper had her own suit and their daughter probably inherited Tony’s intelligence and could grow up to follow in her father’s footsteps. The mantle of Captain America has been passed to Sam and one day he’ll pass it on. The person may change or die, but the legacy will live on.

I loved the old defunct MC2 universe, which primarily focused on Peter Parker's daughter May as Spider-Girl, but also introduced adult Cassie Lang as the superhero called Stinger, and Shannon Carter, a descendant of Peggy and Sharon, as American Dream, essentially a female Captain America. I've always liked the character, but in hindsight they should not have been afraid to simply call her "Captain America", especially after she was bequeathed the shield by Steve Rogers himself.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_Dream_(comics)