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About Mirror Georgiou in ”Such Sweet Sorrow, Part 2“

If anything, those would be the reasons why Barzan is not part of the Federation, not any intrinsic crazyness on the part of its native species.
Did I say "crazy"? No, I said different social mores. Are tribes where women freely show their breasts crazy? Are Klingons with their code of honor and ritual combat? Perhaps Barzan culture is bigger on vengeance, reciprocal justice, and other things that would tend to bring Nhan's views closer to MU Georgiou's on occasion.
 
Though I don't applaud Georgiou taking pleasure in destroying Control, and grinning, it can't be forgotten that Control wants to eliminate all life.

This isn't Good vs Bad. It's Bad vs. Worse. If Control wants to wipe out all life everywhere, then it's The Worst. It's not black and white. It's black and pitch black.

I don't feel sympathy for something that wants to destroy everything. I don't feel sympathy for Control. If Leland were alive, I would feel sympathy for him. But it would be sympathy for Leland, not Control.
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I don't see how the body could scream without a human consciousness inhabiting it. Bodies don't just scream on their own; that's something that only a conscious, living entity can do.

That said, perhaps there was a remnant of the real Leland in there after all - no longer in control of his own body, but forced to sit there and watch while Control wreaks havoc in his name. Kind of like what happens to a human host in the Stargate SG-1 universe when a Goa'uld inhabits the body (the host remembers everything the Goa'uld does, sees everything the Goa'uld sees, but is powerless to do anything about it).

So maybe that's what was doing the screaming - the last remnants of the real Leland.

As for Georgiou: She was equally disposed to hate Leland and Control. Georgiou and Leland never got along even before Control took over Leland's body. So I can buy that she would gloat over both of their deaths - Leland the human, and Control the entity. Hell, I doubt she ever believed, or cared, that there was a difference.



Premier Bhavani (from TNG's "The Price") seemed like a fairly even-tempered individual. :shrug:

I admit that it's really not possible to get a read on Barzans, as a species, based on only two characters, but I see no reason to assume anything unusual about them. As we've said, Nhan could simply have a unique sense of humor - there's no reason to think she's crazy. She hasn't done anything to suggest otherwise. And of course she wouldn't be able to make it in Starfleet if she was crazy.

And the fact that Barzan isn't a member of the Federation...that's not really anything to go on, either. In "The Price" we learn that Barzan is a world that is somewhat lacking in resources, and they don't even have interplanetary spaceflight capability. If anything, those would be the reasons why Barzan is not part of the Federation, not any intrinsic crazyness on the part of its native species.
As you mentioned in your 2nd paragraph, I think there was still a living Leland in there.

In fact, I was surprised to hear a confirmation from someone in the production that Leland was dead. I thought he would live through the Control “possession” and end up being in the Section 31 series with Georgiou.

To bad he didn’t live, because I liked the character.
 
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I'm just gonna put this out there - I DID feel sympathy for Leland. He didn't deserve what happened to him. He would be as horrified as anyone to find out what Control was up to.

Definitely, I agree with this 100%. Leland, though not perfect and definitely not a Saint, was at least trying to do what he thought were in the best interests of the Federation. What happened with Control is exactly what he hoped wouldn't happen and he never expected it to.

It's horrible that Control used his corpse as a meat suit. Control knew what it was doing when it took over Leland's body, to give itself a physical body and by using emotional manipulation by looking like Leland. Even Saru had to remind the crew this wasn't Leland.

To quote Kirk at the end of "Where No Man Has Gone Before", even though the situation there was completely different, "He didn't ask for what happened to him."

And that's where I'm going to leave things. I just did light and sound for a play tonight and last night. The Crucible. It's a story about a 1692 Salem Witch Trial written during the McCarthyist Era and the performances tonight were somehow even more intense than last night. Between that play and this thread, I'm all set. I have to wind down from both.

Fin.
 
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Still not cannibalism.
Of course she is. Eating Kelpians?

As Kirk told Spock in ST 6, "we're all human." Trekkies can't have it both ways, lauding the franchise for supposedly embracing diversity and universal brotherhood between species - ala Kirk's repeated declarations over decades - and now splitting the finest of hairs because some folks like Mirror Georgiou and so want to excuse her eating some people. "It's just someone like Saru, totally understandable."

What are people quibbling over this in the name of? Certainly not clarity, accuracy, English or, surprisingly, even pedantry.
 
I'm going to coin a new term right now: cantibalism. It's when someone eats other sapient beings in a cannibalistic fashion, but you just CAN'T *call* it cannibalism because of being literal about the word's meaning.

MU Georgiou is a known cantibal. Which is just as bad as being a cannibal.

There, can we move on, now? ;)
 
What are people quibbling over this in the name of? Certainly not clarity, accuracy, English or, surprisingly, even pedantry.
Yes, clarity. Because cannibalism carries with it such a pejorative in this topic that the character is no longer being discussed. Just how evil they are.

Surprisingly, not a very productive conversation or engagement with the material.
 
Of course she is. Eating Kelpians?

As Kirk told Spock in ST 6, "we're all human." Trekkies can't have it both ways, lauding the franchise for supposedly embracing diversity and universal brotherhood between species - ala Kirk's repeated declarations over decades - and now splitting the finest of hairs because some folks like Mirror Georgiou and so want to excuse her eating some people. "It's just someone like Saru, totally understandable."

What are people quibbling over this in the name of? Certainly not clarity, accuracy, English or, surprisingly, even pedantry.

That's a big fat NOPE.

Unless she's a Kelpian, then nope. Language matters. Words matter. Just because she's awful, evil, and eats aliens doesn't mean cannibal is the correct word choice. Are you vegan? If not I'll call you a cannibal. Lol. Doesn't work like that.

You procede from false assumption. I see no one excusing her for eating anyone. At least not my motivation. The term cannibal has specific usage and this ain't it, no matter how bad you hate the character (or the show, which you've said several times you quit watching, yet you're sure crtitisizing episodes and plot arcs that came after you 'gave up'*).

*World's largest eyeroll.
 
Of course she is. Eating Kelpians?

As Kirk told Spock in ST 6, "we're all human." Trekkies can't have it both ways, lauding the franchise for supposedly embracing diversity and universal brotherhood between species - ala Kirk's repeated declarations over decades - and now splitting the finest of hairs because some folks like Mirror Georgiou and so want to excuse her eating some people. "It's just someone like Saru, totally understandable."
Exactly. What else would people eating people be called in the UFP, anyway?
 
Exactly. What else would people eating people be called in the UFP, anyway?
Likely, language would evolve to accommodate such terms and descriptors.

By definitions:

Wikipedia on Cannibalism:

Cannibalism is the act or practice of humans eating the flesh or internal organs of other human beings.

Wikipedia on Cannibalism (zoology):

In zoology, cannibalism is the act of one individual of a species consuming all or part of another individual of the same species as food.

English Oxford Living Dictionary on cannibal:

A person who eats the flesh of other human beings

This means that if other sentient races are actually a races of homo sapiens species, then eating them is cannibalism. If not, then not - but then in your world there would probably be a word just for that, too.
Link.
 
As you mentioned in your 2nd paragraph, I think there was still a living Leland in there.

In fact, I was surprised to hear a confirmation from someone in the production that Leland was dead.

Control was wearing his cadaver and using it as a tool and a weapon - using his nerve endings to be able to pick stuff up, for example. Which means those nerve endings still transmitted pain - or at least undesirable densory data - to Control. It's Control that was screaming.
 
Likely, language would evolve to accommodate such terms and descriptors.
The OED has a definition for literally that means "figuratively". That annoys me, but I can't deny it, because it's how language works. Those of you arguing against this use of "cannibalism", please tell us what word would be used as shorthand for the crime of one sapient consuming another in the 23rd century. Or coin one. Oh wait, I've already done that. *What in blue blazes is your POINT?* I think I've seen someone suggest that the words cannibal and cannibalism pre-judge Georgiou. That's insane - even if the word doesn't precisely fit, the act is the moral equivalent. If you want a redemption arc for Georgiou, so be it - I wouldn't mind one, either - but the first step to redemption is admitting and taking responsibility for wrong-doings, and you don't do that by trying to minimize them playing silly pedantic games with language. :P
 
Control was wearing his cadaver and using it as a tool and a weapon - using his nerve endings to be able to pick stuff up, for example. Which means those nerve endings still transmitted pain - or at least undesirable densory data - to Control. It's Control that was screaming.
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The OED has a definition for literally that means "figuratively". That annoys me, but I can't deny it, because it's how language works. Those of you arguing against this use of "cannibalism", please tell us what word would be used as shorthand for the crime of one sapient consuming another in the 23rd century. Or coin one. Oh wait, I've already done that. *What in blue blazes is your POINT?* I think I've seen someone suggest that the words cannibal and cannibalism pre-judge Georgiou. That's insane - even if the word doesn't precisely fit, the act is the moral equivalent. If you want a redemption arc for Georgiou, so be it - I wouldn't mind one, either - but the first step to redemption is admitting and taking responsibility for wrong-doings, and you don't do that by trying to minimize them playing silly pedantic games with language. :P
A redemption arc doesn't start by beating a person about the head with a constant reminder of their evil ways, does it?

Secondarily, even if she is a cannibal by this new definition she was from a world where that act would be recognized as amoral. Which means she has to recognize that as wrongdoing in the first place. Which, isn't down by telling a person how wrong they are. It's teaching that there is a more moral way.
 
Likely, language would evolve to accommodate such terms and descriptors.
Exactly.

So, in other words, use of the term cannibalism to refer to people eating people, where people are defined broadly to extend to all sapient (or, as they are called in Star Trek, "sentient") beings, would be perfectly plausible and reasonable. As @Serveaux pointed out, Kirk used the term human itself to imply such broad inclusiveness, which only underscores the plausibility of it.
 
Exactly.

So, in other words, use the term cannibalism to refer to people eating people, where people are defined broadly to extend to all sapient (or, as they are called in Star Trek, "sentient") beings, would be perfectly plausible and reasonable. As @Serveaux pointed out, Kirk used the term human itself to imply such broad inclusiveness, which only underscores the plausibility of it.
As long as the term is agreed upon by others to carry that meaning. If not, then it becomes a meaningless (no pun intended) distraction that does little, if anything, to add to the conversation.

Regardless, I stand by my assertion that such labels are not used to enhance the conversation regarding the character but only to continue a label to keep the character in a predefined box. As such, the character, no matter what, is beyond redemption with such labels.
 
Characters are allowed to grow, develop, travel along an arc, etc., but eating Kelpiens was an explicit demonstration of just how extremely evil she was. It's really not reasonable to read it any other way.
 
Characters are allowed to grow, develop, travel along an arc, etc., but eating Kelpiens was an explicit demonstration of just how extremely evil she was. It's really not reasonable to read it any other way.
Yes, it is evil to us. To her, it would be different. That she is in the process of being exposed to a new moral standard is part of her growth. But, I don't think it is acknowledging the potential for growth if she is constantly called a cannibal, or Space Hitler or any number of terms that are designed short change the conversation and become meaningless as a discussion of the actual character, which would involve recognizing the character's perspective on their actions.
 
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