The use of the term "auxiliaries" in the TIY context seems to imply that Kirk is talking about the back-up systems to the secondary systems, i.e. the emergency systems or batteries, not a specific system called auxiliaries.
Engine Room(s) on the TOS Enterprise (revisited)
- Thread starter Henoch
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I think were saying essentially the same thing, but we're each just reversing the order of the terms used for the two back-up power systems?
Here's the way I see it break down based on the dialogue, 1st you have main/warp power, then 2nd you have the secondary/emergency impulse power, then you have the 3rd auxiliary/battery impulse power.
The "secondary systems' refers to impulse power with a functioning main energizer, the "emergency" impulse power is without the main energizer. In the first instance limited fuel has never been known to be a problem, but in the second instance, running low on fuel becomes a concern.
So then the auxiliary impulse power would be impulse power supplemented with "auxiliaries" or batteries, in which case limited fuel also becomes a concern.
That could also tie in with the idea that impulse speeds are supplemented with a low-level warp field that makes the impulse drive more efficient. With the main energizer out, the impulse power would result in much slower speeds that could use up reserve power much faster.
Very possibly; and/or under normal conditions the impulse engines are powered either by dilithium power via the M/A-M reactor(s) or alternately, may get a little antimatter injected directly into the impulse exhaust for an added "kick" to the thrust, which would also make them far more fuel efficient.
Another thing to keep in mind, there may be a subtle distinction between impulse power and impulse engines/drive?
depending on the context Power could be either power to the impulse engine system via other sources, or it could mean power derived from the impulse engine system to power other systems, whereas impulse engines, or drive, refers specifically to the propulsion system. Disentangling these subtle distinctions may help avoid a lot of needless confusion.
Another thing to keep in mind, there may be a subtle distinction between impulse power and impulse engines/drive?
depending on the context Power could be either power to the impulse engine system via other sources, or it could mean power derived from the impulse engine system to power other systems, whereas impulse engines, or drive, refers specifically to the propulsion system. Disentangling these subtle distinctions may help avoid a lot of needless confusion.
If you're looking at the individual 35mm frames that's alot more resolution than SD quality video. In SD quality video (480p) the small 4" in "The Doomsday Machine" would have each pixel equal to ~6.5' across assuming a 950' ship scale making details extremely difficult to resolve.
If you've not seen Tallguy's TOS FX Catalog, I highly recommend checking it out to put the different models in context of the show. It's a good place to see how small the models were actually on screen, what episodes did they show up in and which parts of the ship were visible and how clearly or blurred it was.
Well to think a ship that size would be completely static seems illogical to me so of course, YMMV
If I was looking at it on 1960's SD TV there wouldn't be a way to discern the scale numbers
But I get why you want the 947' length so let's just agree to disagree.
Actually I was thinking about the flight deck maquette as it's the filmed physical representation of the flight deck.
And on the contrary, I enjoy seeing everyone's take on the Enterprise
Well good luck sorting all that out as alot of BTS and "official" sources differ from what's shown on screen. Anyways, continue on with your work
In "Tomorrow is Yesterday", the bridge controls and main lights appear to be all dead but they're flipping switches and such. Spock reports that "secondary systems and impulse power" are the only thing functioning at that point with "auxiliaries" up to Scotty to turn back on. When the bridge lights and controls come back on we assume the "auxiliaries" are now on. Are "auxiliaries" akin to "auxiliary energizers"?
KIRK: Mister Spock.
SPOCK: Except for secondary systems, everything is out, sir. We're on impulse power only.
KIRK: Auxiliaries?
SPOCK: If Mister Scott is still with us, auxiliaries should be on momentarily.
SPOCK: Except for secondary systems, everything is out, sir. We're on impulse power only.
KIRK: Auxiliaries?
SPOCK: If Mister Scott is still with us, auxiliaries should be on momentarily.
Yeah, I too think there is a distinction between "impulse power" and "impulse engines/drive".
IMHO, Impulse power, like Warp power, is power that is stored for use by the ship's systems. Warp power energy is stored in the crystals while Impulse power is stored in I'm guessing a separate, impulse power storage system. Battery power is in a third and also separate storage system.
What if impulse engines work by taking allocated impulse power to drive an impulse field and converts/transforms a portion of it into matter fuel on the fly to be "fusioned?" and provide propulsive force? This would take in account the lack of large fuel tanks and also the ability to transfer additional energy into and out of impulse power storage. Also, I think energy converted to matter fuel could have remaining unused fuel reclaimed and converted back into energy for the ship...
Here's a brief list of impulse power being used in TOS:
"Tomorrow is Yesterday"
SPOCK: We are too low in the atmosphere to retain this orbit, Captain. Engineering reports we have sufficient impulse power to achieve escape velocity.
"WNMHGB"
Captain's log, Star date 1312.9. Ship's condition, heading back on impulse power only.
"Arena"
SPOCK: How about bypassing the transformer banks? Feed the impulse engines directly.
"The Squire of Gothos"
Captain's Log: ...However, by diverting impulse power to our sensors, we have made them operable, and we have detected one small area on the surface which seems relatively stable.
"Corbomite Maneuver"
KIRK: Now, Mister Sulu. Impulse power too.
"The Doomsday Machine"
SPOCK: At our present rate of consumption, we'll exhaust our impulse power long before then.
"The Apple"
KIRK: Then use your imagination. Tie every ounce of power the ship has into the impulse engines.
...
SCOTT: Sir, I'm going to switch over everything but the life-support systems and boost the impulse power, but that's just about as dangerous.
...
SCOTT: We're ready here, sir. All available power has been channeled into the impulse engines.
...
SCOTT: Sir, I'm going to switch over everything but the life-support systems and boost the impulse power, but that's just about as dangerous.
...
SCOTT: We're ready here, sir. All available power has been channeled into the impulse engines.
"The Immunity Syndrome"
SCOTT: Captain, we've only twenty six percent power reserves after entry.
KIRK: Do we have impulse power, Scotty?
SCOTT: I saved all I could, sir, but I don't know whether we have enough to get back out again.
KIRK: Do we have impulse power, Scotty?
SCOTT: I saved all I could, sir, but I don't know whether we have enough to get back out again.
"Elaan of Troyius"
KIRK: They're trying to force a fight. Scotty, what's our energy status?
SCOTT: Ninety three percent of impulse power, sir.
...
SULU: Captain, number four shield just collapsed. Impulse power down to thirty one percent.
SCOTT: Ninety three percent of impulse power, sir.
...
SULU: Captain, number four shield just collapsed. Impulse power down to thirty one percent.
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Wow! Just read the 36 pages of this thread. All of you guys are amazing.
Being the simpleton , I wonder if something as basic as looking at the graphic numbers printed on the pipes in the background of the engine rooms would give us any insight? I note that the the alphanumeric numbers change. Granted , it could change with repair/replacement. But perhaps it could give some hint? Maybe the secondary numbers are different from the primary hull?
Or not (the amateur says to the professionals)
Being the simpleton , I wonder if something as basic as looking at the graphic numbers printed on the pipes in the background of the engine rooms would give us any insight? I note that the the alphanumeric numbers change. Granted , it could change with repair/replacement. But perhaps it could give some hint? Maybe the secondary numbers are different from the primary hull?
Or not (the amateur says to the professionals)
I thought the same thing but just for continuity reasons, but, I didn't have the energy for something I thought would not yield any real insight. The production people never expected the numbers to be readable, so, I doubt they put logic into them. I welcome others to join in on the on-screen set data.
There's the mention by Kirk in "The Ultimate Computer" of connecting the M5 computer to "the main power banks" (energy storage) after Daystrom mistakenly refers to the "main power plants" (energy production); and in "The Doomsday Machine" Spock refers to the Constellation's "reserve energy banks" which I think can be associated with the batteries. So if there are main power banks and reserve energy banks, there must be something in the middle which is not "main" and not "reserve" power banks.
Perhaps the main power banks are the main energizer/dilithium crystal system (the tube chamber in the engineering section flashes and sizzles when Scotty hooks up the M5) which power various high energy systems, then there would be secondary or auxiliary power banks associated with impulse power storage and then finally the reserve enregy or batteries?
Why not just have the other two systems recharging the batteries? Not being critical, just wanting more info.
This would be how it works in TNG? On a ship in deep space, it does make sense to be able to convert a variety of energy sources into something that can be used for almost any ship system. Perhaps this is why in TNG plasma is piped everywhere instead of just using a more traditional energy consumption system?
A side question might be how much redundancy is there in major 1701 systems?
I'm wondering if there is a separation of the "main power banks" and the "main energizer". In "The Doomsday Machine" when they lost the main energizers they lost warp power but they apparently still had some operational power left over as the ship doesn't go immediately dead in the water. I assume the "emergency procedures" include switching to or adding in auxiliary power. Spock orders "emergency impulse power" to try and veer off so it sounds like they needed to dip into the batteries or the impulse power bank is separate from auxiliary power (like in "Tomorrow is Yesterday"). In "The Ultimate Computer", M5 is connected to the "main power banks" but later on it gets direct access to the warp engines' matter-antimatter reserves which to me suggests it ended up pulling directly from the "main energizers."
So hypothetically:
Main Matter-Antimatter fuel tanks > Main M/AM reactor energy > Main Energizer [Crystals] > Main Power Bank
Main Energizer [Crystals] > Matter-Antimatter fuel generators > Main Matter-Antimatter fuel tanks
Main Power Bank > Nacelle Matter-Antimatter fuel generators > Nacelle Matter-Antimatter temp tanks > Nacelle Matter-Antimatter Engine reactor(s) > Space Warp
Main Power Bank <> Energy Transformers > Matter fuel generators > Matter temp tanks > Impulse Engine reactor(s) > Impulse Propulsion
Main Power Bank <> Impulse Power Bank
Main Power Bank <> Auxiliary Power Bank
Main Power Bank <> Battery Power Bank
Main Power Bank > Ship's systems (shields, life support, weapons, etc)
Of course, YMMV
No, that's a good question. I would imagine that both the impulse power bank and battery power bank are rechargeable and are both recharged when there is a surplus of generated energy from the mains.
IIRC, TNG has the E-D carry her matter and antimatter fuel in large tanks so they seem to be actually consuming the fuel rather than storing it as energy to be converted into fuel to be consumed as I'm hypothesizing.
There are at least two Warp engines (nacelles) and Impulse has at least four engines. There are at least four Crystal circuits, but only one converter assembly. There are at least two control centers (bridge and auxiliary control). There are auxiliary power sources. Batteries are the emergency backup. There are also various backup controls for flight. We know in "The Doomsday Machine" that the warp controls and impulse controls can be swapped in an emergency. Only one usable transporter room at a time.
If I'm not mistaken, in "TDM" the Enterprise is never stated to be at warp? So when there's a power failure in the main energizer it just means they don't have power for warp drive should they need it. But it does nevertheless seem to effect impulse power and other power systems.
And regarding M5 drawing power directly from the warp engines and tapping the M/A-M reserves, this is why I think Daystrom miss-spoke earlier when he said "main power plants" because these would be the M/A-M reactors, which of course, was not what M5 was initially connected to.
P.S. I'm currently toying around with the idea that a central M/A-M reactor powers the ship for normal day-to-day operations and speeds up to say, warp factor 2; then when more power/speed is needed, say for deflectors and warp factor 5, one of the nacelle reactors comes online; then for "full power" with phasers, deflectors at full, etc. and warp factors 8 (or above) the other nacelle reactor comes online.
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The way I'm laying out the system in my version is that there is a single m/am reactor in the secondary hull (I'm not placing any in the nacelles, but my arrangement leaves that as an option) which is the main power. It powers everything through the pipe unit and the dilithium crystals. When it is down that leaves auxiliary power. What that looks like I have not fully decided, but it involves the impulse engine's fusion reactors (which aren't needed when main power is running because the impulse engines can run off plasma bled from the main reaction). Backup/emergency power would be batteries or any independent power units (which is what I think those big blocky things in Engineering are). And if the ship needs extra power for something, you can have the mains, auxiliaries, and backups running together to produce the maximum amount of power. The ship has virtually unlimited power through main power (to run the ship and charge the batteries), but if they have to separate the saucer, the saucer only has the auxiliary power and backup power which is more finite.
The DM was certainly capable of warp speeds to travel between solar systems L-370 thru L-374 in only a short time period (days?). If the DM is not faster than light, then the Enterprise would have years to report back to Starfleet and mount a defense for Rigel. Kirk and Decker seems to have an urgent time frame to protect the Rigel colony. After the Enterprise loses warp drive, Spock says, "Therefore, we cannot save Rigel. We must transport the Captain and the others from the Constellation and escape this thing's subspace interference in order to warn Starfleet Command." Spock also said it would take only one day to fix the warp drive. Bottom line, if the Enterprise doesn't stop the DM now, then the next solar system is toast, so, FLT speeds have to be available to the DM.
Most of the chase action was inside the debris-strewn solar system, so, maybe the action was not FLT even early on when the Enterprise still had its warp drive (see Moving Slow at Warp Speed). The Enterprise was more maneuverable and was able to outrun the DM but it was challenging. After they lost warp drive, the Enterprise was still able to maintain its distance on impulse drive but burning fuel up fast. Perhaps being more maneuverable was more important than speed due to the debris field or the DM kept accelerating at and missing the ship, and was slow to change course to make another run on the ship.
The construction clearly shows effort was made to create a straight row of windows that was above the red banner lines to make the model look nice. The model has sloping alignment of windows in the rear,
Just for fun, I'd just like to see the secondary hull re-proportioned to line up the windows and stretch the hangar area back to look more like the pressure hull diagrams so the Datin Hangar Model fits inside the ship. Alas, I don't have the computer tools.
I wonder if this may have influenced the folks behind the AMT model to have the nacelles line flat with respect to the top of the secondary hull, forgetting it was a cone.
I tried it using my limited skill. I took the pressure hull diagram; and lastly, eyeballed the rest.
I'd like to see a blueprint of the ship over that exact pressure hull diagram. Aridas Sofia did something close--but not quite.
Here are my hangar comparisons. I did various sizes of Jefferies hangar, including what I am going to use, plus FJ's and the Phase II hangar.
I think the way Datin built it is closer to how FJ drew it than to Jefferies drawing.
Speaking of Aridas, I loved his TAS type Defiant
https://photobucket.com/gallery/use...25lQ2hhcnRTaGlwczJfenBza2Z0cXpxaHAucG5n/?ref=
At last enough room for a good shuttlebay--better than the cramped space of the remastered OS
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The only problem with the sloping windows theory is that they don't. Only Sinclair has those odd windows. I don't see it on the 11 foot model, Casimiro, Shaw, or anything tied to Gary Kerr (whose hands on work is the basis for Greg Jein's Enterprise, the 1/350 model kit, and was used by the Smithsonian - where Kerr again had access to the model).
Is there an on-screen source for 4 impulse engines, or is that just from the FJSTM? Not disputing it, just wondering if maybe Catspaw's 3 reactors could be three impulse (or fusion) reactors, rather than warp reactors.
Can you explain what the arrows mean? (greater than/less than or flow direction, etc.?)
Why would M5 not be directly drawing power from the matter-antimatter reactor(s)? If the pipe structure were analogous to one of the following, it would make dramatic sense for M5 to be directly drawing power from it: warp core, main energizer converter assembly, power transfer conduit, intermix chamber.
Not a bad theory, but if that were the case, then the ship would almost never use two nacelles, and that would be a huge structure to have just as a redundancy.
That statement largely fits with the idea that power regenerates in "The Mark of Gideon."
That could be logical. Especially if impulse is aided by warp power to lower the mass of the vessel. Then it would be slower, less maneuverable, and use fuel more quickly with the main energizer down. And if the main energizer, is much the same thing as the warp core (look at how the warp core is used in Voyager to power or increase power to all kinds of other ship systems), it makes even more sense in this and numerous other distantly similar cases.
I figure a minimum of 4 impulse engines based on on-screen dialogue... In "Obsession" we know there is at least two engines. In "Court Martial", Spock powers up the port impulse engines - so assuming symmetry then there should be matching starboard impulse engines. If there are at least 2 on each side then a minimum of 4, IMO.
From "Obsession"
CHEKOV: Open hatch on impulse engine number two. Mister Scott was doing an AID clean-up on it.
From "Court Martial"
SPOCK: Activate port impulse engines. One third power.
I should have explained the arrows - yeah they are flow direction. Some go one way while others can go both directions.
Mostly for the dialogue to work later in the episode. In the beginning, Scotty hooks M5 up to the "main power banks" as per Kirk's instructions. Later when M5 goes rogue it connects directly to the main power plants (the M/AM system) which go through the energizer/crystal converter assembly as Daystrom had wanted to originally...
