Spoilers Star Trek: Discovery 2x13 - "Such Sweet Sorrow"

[cultcross]

If they don't move forward in time now, that would be a massive cop-out

Oddly I think a permanent time jump would be a massive cop out. They've established a setting in the 23rd century and I'm enjoying it. I can't see any narrative reason to move it into the 28th century or whatever, it's just a gimmick. I feel the same way as when people say they want a Trek series in this era or that era, what stories can you tell in the 29th that you can't tell in the 23rd? If they want to do the great unknown, there's, well, space. If they want to do isolated starship, Voyager has shown that doesn't need a time jump.

 

[Alan Roi]

Did anyone else find sarek and Amanda appearing to say goodbye somewhat bizarre?

Like is there any plot significance to them appearing? Was there any point beyond letting us know how much they love her? Because we already know that...

And would they not inform someone that discovery was in trouble?

This demonstrates that future Burnham informed Sarek on a time jump back that she needed him to fulfull what happened in her past. It reinforces that future Burnham has fixed things, and is ensuring everything is happening as she remembered how they happened, because if you've fixed time you don't want anything to break it.

Why do you think Sarek has such a grin on his face?

And no, when she left Amanda and Sarek last time they were not exactly reconciled.

 

[Alan Roi]

If they don't move forward in time now, that would be a massive cop-out. I think you have a point about Cornwell, but that goodbye still might happen. As far as L'Rell, I don't want to speculate on that just yet. But why would anyone on Discovery want to say goodbye to L'Rell, besides Tyler? Tyler and L'Rell already essentially said their goodbyes in "Through the Valley of Shadows" when L'Rell recognized that she no longer saw Voq in Tyler, and Voq is who she really loved.

Actually, they said their goodbye's in Point of Light. The vibe I got in Through the Valley of Shadows was that they might be rethinking the absoluteness of that previous goodbye. Which is further suggested by the fact he isn't going into the future.

 

[cultcross]

This demonstrates that future Burnham informed Sarek on a time jump back that she needed him to fulfull what happened in her past. It reinforces that future Burnham has fixed things, and is ensuring everything is happening as she remembered how they happened, because if you've fixed time you don't want anything to break it.

Why do you think Sarek has such a grin on his face?

And no, when she left Amanda and Sarek last time they were not exactly reconciled.

That's some reading between the lines!

 

[Alan Roi]

That's some reading between the lines!

I've watched a *lot* of time travel stories in my life. But i'll be happy to hear any other theories that anyone thinks makes more sense the way the narrative of how the time travel of this season has been constructed.

 

[Gov Kodos]

Wait till Burnham shows up with Billy the Kid to stop Control. That's why he was unfazed by time travel in Bill and Ted.

 

[cooleddie74]

He'll make her famous!

 

[Gonzo]

I see there is some discussion about the value of the goodbyes in the last episode and how they were shown, too short, too long, too many, not enough etc etc

The value of that will not really be known until the finale this week, then we will have a better idea of what the scriptwriters were preparing us for and just who is or is not going bye bye, possibly for good.

Clearly they want us to think this is it, but is it really.

 

[Deledrius]

Linus is the smartest one of the bunch. What the heck is the point of this pseudo-suicide mission? The ship should be fine on its own, although I guess it's nice that a few people are going. I mean, it's sad about Michael and all, but I'm with Tyler on this one.

I assumed the plan was that Burnham by her own would be trapped, but that together they may be able to figure out a way back home for all of them. It's a big risk, but not an outright suicide mission. Might have helped if someone stated it, because otherwise there really isn't much point in them all joining her except sentimentality alone.

But if they actually do this - go into the future to stay there - holy shit would that be an unprecedented re-vamp! I don't think I like that - that's akin to bringing the Voyager home, or completely putting the DS9-crew on a starship in the middle of the series. A complete admission they weren't able to handle the original concept.

I still believe they should have brought Voyager home early. There were stories to tell there and they'd already given up on the "stranded ship" premise mattering in non-superficial ways anyway. If they'd brought them home early enough, and the writers were sadists, they could even have been trapped on the wrong side of the Bajoran Wormhole when it was mined...

That's why you break the ship's power generators first. The whole dilemma is blatantly absurd. It is completely ludicrous that they couldn't figure out a way to destroy a ship inside to which they had free access.

Seems like a win-win situation to me! You can take the ship into any dangerous confrontation and not need to worry because it's grown plot-armor to protect itself, and if by some chance it fails anyway then the data's destroyed too.

Didn't "Saints of Imperfection" establish that spore jumping kills / harms the May lifeforms that live in the network?

It did. I believe May said that the damage started when they began making the jumps. Culber was simply a persistent, monstrous threat, but the Spore Drive itself was a problem and Stamets even started to work on shutting it down for good until they realized they had accidentally lost Tilly without realizing it due to spores melting their perception. Shortly after this conflict was resolved we got the plot-shift (which may be the biggest indication of the showrunner swap) over to CONTROL and everything about Tilly and Culber's adventures were dropped except the ongoing trouble with Culber's self-identity. The Spore Drive is just a thing they can use at will without concern for Stamets or the Mycelial Network so far during the rest of the season.

I like how last week they managed to make him more than just the heroic leader. It would have been very easy to just have him take the crystal and seal his fate. But instead, they gave him that moment where he has to steel himself and reaffirm the values he swore to uphold. This gets both his heroism and his humanity across. I feel that Pike is the best-written character this season, and he is the one with the simplest story around him. Sometimes you don't need to make your lead be the previously unknown sibling of an established character, or have them be the doppelganger of a dead captain, you just need to make them a good, likable person and that's enough.

Now he's not just a person who commits an heroic act, but he's someone who makes the choice to do so, knowing the sacrifice and its personal cost... and in doing so is committing yet another heroic act. And, by attributing these values to his Starfleet training, he confers that same heroism to the entire organization -- an important point when facing a foe like Section 31 that claims to uphold the same organization with none of those values. It's a deeply powerful scene for the show and for the character.

 

[Lord Garth]

Oddly I think a permanent time jump would be a massive cop out. They've established a setting in the 23rd century and I'm enjoying it.

I enjoy it too, but the 23rd Century was only ever going to be a starting point. The original plan was to start in the TOS Era go to the TNG Era and then go to an era beyond that. That was Bryan Fuller's plan. Apparently, they're sticking to this, even if only in broad strokes. Between the Spore Drive and the Time Crystals, jumping to a different time period has always been a possibility. "What's Past Is Prologue" made time travel a possibility with its nine-month baby step. It was a possibility from Day One.

There's no Spore Drive that's used in TOS or the later series. It has to be written off as a failure. But they can't get rid of the ship before the end. I've said all along something has to happen to the Spore Drive. Something has to be wrong with it. Stamets having Tartigrade DNA and is one part of it. The Federation being against genetic engineering is another. No more Starfleet Officers with Tartigrade DNA. Discovery entering The Mycellial Network disrupts life inside there and creates an imbalance. The ship disappearing is the final nail in the coffin. The Spore Drive is operated by means that aren't considered kosher, disrupts an ecosystem, and is something they weren't able to effectively figure out how to duplicate without any of the drawbacks. Which is why it's not used in TOS, TNG, DS9, or VOY.

If Discovery can figure out how to use the Spore Drive effectively and work out all the kinks, then it has to take place AT MINIMUM after those series. If it takes place during the Picard Series, then Discovery and the Picard Series have to worry about stepping on each other's toes. By having them take place 800 years apart, it becomes a non-issue.

Because Discovery has to take place after the other series for Discovery to have mastered the Spore Drive and use it effectively, that must include traveling to different points in time as well as space. So there has to be a reason Discovery can't go back. Having data inside of it that can't be erased but is also something that Control can hijack, interface with, and compromise is a reason. Discovery can't go wherever or whenever Control is. And if Zora's existence turns out to depend on whatever data Discovery has that Control wants to seize, then she can't just be wiped out. So that could be another reason. But Zora might be willing to sacrifice her life for the Greater Good, which takes us back to: Control. And maybe Zora's existence is independent of whatever data Discovery has that Control wants. Or Zora turns out to be selfish. Who knows? But whether or not Zora factors into it, Control is already one factor limiting their return.

I feel the same way as when people say they want a Trek series in this era or that era, what stories can you tell in the 29th that you can't tell in the 23rd? If they want to do the great unknown, there's, well, space. If they want to do isolated starship, Voyager has shown that doesn't need a time jump.

Stories about or involving Zora. Stories about or involving Terralysium. Stories about (but not necessarily) the fall of the Federation or, to flip it the other way, what it evolved into. The crew having to adapt to a new time. Stories about the V'draysh and Alcor IV.

Oh, and stories where Canonistas don't throw up their arms and say "How come we didn't hear about this in TOS?! This is anachronistic! What about TNG? What about DS9? What about VOY? What about whatever else I can reach for?" Now I know how fans of ENT felt. I've had just about enough of that crowd. Without fail, they're always there to chime in about anything new DSC does or has, and how it lines up with The Holy Canon. Like clockwork. It gets annoying. Really annoying. Especially when it's all the time. The less they have to work with, the further they have to reach, the less ground they have to stand on.

 

[Rahul]

I still believe they should have brought Voyager home early. There were stories to tell there and they'd already given up on the "stranded ship" premise mattering in non-superficial ways anyway. If they'd brought them home early enough, and the writers were sadists, they could even have been trapped on the wrong side of the Bajoran Wormhole when it was mined...

Completely off-topic, but an interesting thought, so I'll jump on this bit: I don't think I agree. Yes, VOY has never been the "struggle for survival show" that everybody wants (essentially VOY's "Equinox", or "Year of Hell", or the nuBSG as an entire series). I see the appeal, and I can completely understand why everybody wanted VOY to be that show.

But that simply wasn't what VOY was. VOY was stranded. But it was still an all-powerfull, post-scarcity, autonomous Utopian ship. As if the Enterprise-D went missing. The burden wasn't the struggle for ressources - the people on that ship had a pretty good life for the most part. The only emotional burden was the seperation from home.

And yes - while at some times I wish VOY had done more stuff with being alone sometimes - I think overall it still makes this show super unique. I love the new Lost in Space as well (or BSG). But while the constant fight for survival is more entertaining, I think VOY actually did something completely unique with it's vision of what "home" actually is, and how the characters actually related to it. It's not that interesting when everyone HAS to get home to survive, instead it's really more a philosophical conondrum, about where people think they belong. I liked that. That was unique.

That being said - I absolutely think they should have returned earlier than the last 30 seconds of the final episode of the show.
In my personal imagination, I'd have them on one final mission. Where the Borg queen wants to invade the Federation for good, and the Voyager actually sneaked home with the fleet, but then had to continue that last, final mission, to save their home from the Borg invasion, not being able to celebrate meeting their lost relatives, but immediately working with them. And then a longer epilogue (like DS9) about where the characters are going, once their shared journey ended. The real ending was...disappointing.

 

[BillJ]

This might even be the litmus test. If you're with the characters, you're with the show.

There is a silliness to this statement. That if you criticize their decisions you somehow against the show. I'm sorry, I've been criticizing Star Trek going all the way back to Jim Kirk's lax security on the original 1701.

To me, the good-byes were largely unearned, the only thing they added to the episode was filling out the runtime.

 

[Lord Garth]

There is a silliness to this statement. That if you criticize their decisions you somehow against the show. I'm sorry, I've been criticizing Star Trek going all the way back to Jim Kirk's lax security on the original 1701.

To me, the good-byes were largely unearned, the only thing they added to the episode was filling out the runtime.

You can criticize characters and still be with them.

 

[BillJ]

You can criticize characters and still be with them.

You can want to see the show succeed and still realize padding is padding.

 

[cultcross]

I enjoy it too, but the 23rd Century was only ever going to be a starting point. The original plan was to start in the TOS Era go to the TNG Era and then go to an era beyond that. That was Bryan Fuller's plan

Well not quite. That was a rejected pitch for a star trek anthology show that Fuller wanted to make, I agree, but that was not Discovery. Discovery is what he came up with when he was told to go away and come up with something that didn't involve a yearly production design marathon. I think it's a bit of a stretch to say the 23rd century was only ever going to be a starting point.

 

[Mommy]

Top secret ship on a classified mission?

But all of sentient life is at risk. And they did say that they would have tried to contact star fleet to get reinforcements but they couldn’t because Control was in control of communications.

Ah well, maybe I was fixating on the wrong thing. Or maybe there will be some significance in the next episode.

Can’t wait for the finale! Bring it!

 

[Deledrius]

Completely off-topic, but an interesting thought, so I'll jump on this bit: I don't think I agree. Yes, VOY has never been the "struggle for survival show" that everybody wants (essentially VOY's "Equinox", or "Year of Hell", or the nuBSG as an entire series). I see the appeal, and I can completely understand why everybody wanted VOY to be that show.

But that simply wasn't what VOY was. VOY was stranded. But it was still an all-powerfull, post-scarcity, autonomous Utopian ship. As if the Enterprise-D went missing. The burden wasn't the struggle for ressources - the people on that ship had a pretty good life for the most part. The only emotional burden was the seperation from home.

And yes - while at some times I wish VOY had done more stuff with being alone sometimes - I think overall it still makes this show super unique. I love the new Lost in Space as well (or BSG). But while the constant fight for survival is more entertaining, I think VOY actually did something completely unique with it's vision of what "home" actually is, and how the characters actually related to it. It's not that interesting when everyone HAS to get home to survive, instead it's really more a philosophical conondrum, about where people belong. I liked that. That was unique.

That being said - I absolutely think they should have returned earlier than the last 30 seconds of the final episode of the show.
In my personal imagination, I'd have them on one final mission. Where the Borg queen wants to invade the Federation for good, and the Voyager actually sneaked home with the fleet, but then had to continue that last, final mission, to save their home from the Borg invasion. And then a longer epilogue (like DS9) about where the characters are going, once their shared journey ended. The real ending was...disappointing.

I was mostly being facetious with my suggestion, but I think getting them home, say, one season early would have been an interesting move. Waiting until the end credits was just disappointing.

I don't think it ever needed to be as dire as Equinox or BSG, but it still could have been useful as a driving situation for more of the stories; as it was a lot of Voyager was just the same kind of stories done on TNG, and that's the shame of it. I liked TNG, but it's weird to pair Voyager's premise and tell the same old stories. You could still have a "Utopian ship trying to get home" tale by having them build alliances in a scattered landscape. That's a deep well for both mining the anxiety of being so far from home and showing the values of the Federation in action. It wouldn't need to be wallowing in despair to be interesting and take the original premise a bit more seriously.

But yes, that's veering off-topic. To get it back: I think it's interesting to do this with Discovery (if it is indeed the direction it's heading). I don't know if it'll be permanent or not, but a massive time-skip is a daring move with a lot of potential. The same is true if they manage to get back home afterward, with or without the ship. I like that there are a lot of options here for rich storytelling, and that I'm not sure which one they're going to choose. But I am looking forward to seeing where we go. Will they be trying to get back home, or will the situation with the data and CONTROL preclude that as even being an option? I'm also very curious about whether this presumed time jump will actually solve anything -- that is to say, what will they find when they arrive at their destination? I'm concerned about this V'draysh situation in Calypso...

 

[Rahul]

I've found over the last two years that there really is no paradox. People who don't like the show simply don't like it. They try, and it's valiant, but they are kidding themselves. If you don't like the characters and you don't like the different approach to the franchise, one or two sporadic episodes you might like are the exception, not the rule. You just don't like it. Very, very simple.

As far as this argument over unearned sappy emotionalism vs. good solid character moments, it really is the defining telltale. If the goodbye scenes don't resonate with you, you just don't like the show and the characters. It's not complicated. Again, its valiant and loyal that people are trying, but it just ain't there.

I don't think that's true.
I've seen unearned, sappy emotionalism and overly drawn out, groan-inducing scenes in shows I absolutely adore. And I often found myself really enjoying character moments for characters I honestly don't care about. For me it's more moment-to-moment.

 

[Rahul]

I was mostly being facetious with my suggestion, but I think getting them home, say, one season early would have been an interesting move. Waiting until the end credits was just disappointing.

Agreed about the disappointment. But my point mostly was - it wouldn't have worked to bring the ship home a season earlier. Because then a big chunk of the crew simply would have left (the ones that were on board to get home, not for the journey). Keeping them on board would have felt completely out of character.

That's why I think - if they should have been brought earlier - it really must have been within a greater one-time mission (stop a Borg invasion or something), that still keeps all the characters on board until that last mission is completed. It can't be, come home, and then have 15 filler episodes where they argue moral conondrums or something. People want to do the things they want to do when they come home.

I don't think it ever needed to be as dire as Equinox or BSG, but it still could have been useful as a driving situation for more of the stories; as it was a lot of Voyager was just the same kind of stories done on TNG, and that's the shame of it. I liked TNG, but it's weird to pair Voyager's premise and tell the same old stories. You could still have a "Utopian ship trying to get home" tale by having them build alliances in a scattered landscape. That's a deep well for both mining the anxiety of being so far from home and showing the values of the Federation in action. It wouldn't need to be wallowing in despair to be interesting and take the original premise a bit more seriously.

100% agree with that part. That's true for every show btw - the real interesting things are usually the stuff that is unique to the show. When DIS does a timeloop-episode, it's nothing unique, literally any other Trek show could have done that. But if they're having long character arcs and changing ranks - that's a unique perspective currently only DIS has on the franchise.

But yes, that's veering off-topic. To get it back: I think it's interesting to do this with Discovery (if it is indeed the direction it's heading). I don't know if it'll be permanent or not, but a massive time-skip is a daring move with a lot of potential. The same is true if they manage to get back home afterward, with or without the ship. I like that there are a lot of options here for rich storytelling, and that I'm not sure which one they're going to choose. But I am looking forward to seeing where we go. Will they be trying to get back home, or will the situation with the data and CONTROL preclude that as even being an option? I'm also very curious about whether this presumed time jump will actually solve anything -- that is to say, what will they find when they arrive at their destination? I'm concerned about this V'draysh situation in Calypso...

I still think this is really, really not a good idea. In fact - it reminds me of ENT's Nazi-time-war episode. Where I just wanted it to get over with, because it's so far removed from what the show is actually otherwise.

 

[cultcross]

I think we'll get a good idea of whether the jump is permanent by whether Spock is still on board when the jump occurs in the finale. If they engineer a way for him to leave the ship first, the odds of it being permanent shoot up in my book. The trailer seems to hint at that, but we shall see.