I've counted one in the secondary hull. I've counted zero, one and maybe two more in the saucer.
So far, we've guessed one or three M/AM reactors. We're just as vague as the originally writers.
Engine Room(s) on the TOS Enterprise (revisited)
- Thread starter Henoch
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So far, we've guessed one or three M/AM reactors. We're just as vague as the originally writers.
This could work, but in order for warp drive to propel the TOS "E" independently of what we normally consider the impulse engines at the rear of the saucer section -as we know it can, then there would have to be another set of impulse-like engines in the nacelles and/or the secondary hull.
As far as a tiny quantity of fuel normally being used, it would follow that without the subspace field, a much larger quantity of fuel would be necessary, so perhaps this explains what happened in both "Mud's Women" and "The Doomsday Machine" when warp power was not available and running low on impulse engine fuel became a concern?
Good point that the impulse engines are not up to the task when the warp nacelles cannot provide the field to lower the inertiaof the shop.
I've counted one in the secondary hull. I've counted zero, one and maybe two more in the saucer.
I think there are at least two engine rooms per Scotty’s line in “The naked Time”. But to really shed some light on the problem we need to disentangle some terms that many are wont to conflate i.e.;
Engineering Deck is not the same as Engineering Section, which in turn is not the same as Engineering Hull.
The term “Engineering Hull” is not a TOS canon term, and “Engineering Section” is not a substitute for it. “Mirror, Mirror”, “Journey To Babel”, and “I Mudd” all indicate in various ways that the Engineering Section is a specific point within the ship and so in no way should it be construed as a large external area such as the Secondary Hull. The closest we come to any canon references to that area of the ship is the occasional references to “lower decks” or “lower levels”.
Among the “lower levels” is to be found the Engineering Deck as per “The Enemy Within”; as well as the Hangar Deck as per “The Omega Glory”, so it’s reasonable to assume that the” lower levels” is a general term referring to those deck/levels in the Secondary Hull, and that therefore the Engineering Deck is in the Secondary Hull.
So far so good, however;
But it is also made abundantly clear in “The Omega Glory” that Kirk is still in the Exeter’s Engineering Section when Spock reports via communicator that he and another crewman are on the “lower levels” thus distinguishing his location within the ship from that of Kirk’s. Furthermore, this episode is the one which features a clip of “an” engineering room, inserted among other stock footage, to represent empty areas of the ship during Kirk’s intercom call to any survivors aboard, and during which, significantly, Kirk reiterates that he is in the Engineering Section. So it is not unreasonable to conclude that there are at least two engine rooms and that one is in the Engineering Section which is not among the lower levels (and thus not in the Secondary Hull), while the other engine room, which is AKA the “Engineering Deck” is located down there.
So if the Engineering Deck is in the lower levels, but the Engineering Section is not in the Secondary Hull then where is the Engineering Section?
In “The Ultimate Computer” we are told that one of the other ships was hit in its Engineering Section, with possible damage to her impulse engines. Therefore it seems clear that the Engineering Section is in the impulse deck, just where TMOST and FJ put it. I know this is an uncomfortable idea for many fans but it fits the factoids we know and requires the least amount of assumptions and hand waving.
That sounds pretty reasonable.
A little minor bit: there are more than one engineering sections on the Enterprise.
From the "Apple":
SCOTT: I'll have all engineering sections working on the circuits immediately.
Having multiple engineering sections allows the addition of an engineering section in secondary hull ala "Day of the Dove".
Although Kang being a stranger to the Enterprise he probably just assumed it is the engineering section and it's just the Engineering Deck or a secondary engineering section on the Engineering Deck
KANG: I have captured your engineering section. I now control this ship's power and life-support systems.
That last one could be 2 different hits so it doesn't mean that the engineering section is the aft end of the saucer. In fact,, TMoST specifies the secondary hull is mostly engineering systems so it can rightly be called the engineering section by that source.
Why would Impulse Engines in the nacelles be required? Just generate a low level warp field to move the ship at STL speeds in those instances where the Impulse Engines are off line (or the saucer has detached).
Exactly my thinking. I'd like to throw TWOK into the mix as well, as the warp drive (nacelles) were offline and their speed when fleeing the Reliant at the end was incredibly slow.
An excellent summary. And I'm totally up for following the factoids and see what picture they present (although I do have the rest of the franchise nagging in the back of my head...)
The way Scott words the phrase makes it sound more like different departments or teams will get to work on the circuits...which isn't actually a problem either, since we see at least one other Engineering dept (in The Alternative Factor) and that could easily be called it's own section
I always liked the more classic science-fictiony "stardrive section", a term that was still in use as late as Encounter At Farpoint
In TOS though, "lower levels" does seem to be a more common description for the area. Also, the "lower levels" is where the bulk of the crew were trapped in Day Of The Dove, perhaps suggesting that the majority of the ship's recreational facilities are located in the secondary hull? If so, it would help explain why there are so many windows on that part of the vessel.
Going back to my original engine room research, here are key data points:
- The Exeter absolutely had two identical engine rooms.
- The Naked Time has a curved corridor leading to the labelled, "Engineering Control Room" suggesting the saucer location.
- The Ultimate Computer had a side turbolift entry plus a long curving corridor leading to an engine room labelled, "Engineering Section" suggesting the saucer location.
- My earlier EMM data showed two different distinct functions (warp engine/power control and transporter control) which suggests two different functional areas on the ship (warp engine control in an undefined location and transporter control in an undefined location).
- The pinwheel entity leaves an engine room then exits the forward starboard secondary hull suggesting this engine room is in the secondary hull (no tripping down the elevator shaft).
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On point one, how do we know the Exeter has two identical engine rooms?
Another, the set as built did not have any length of straight corridor to speak of (they had two short sections) so that is more indicative of the limitations of the set rather than where in the ship anything is supposed to be located.
Because while Kirk stands in one Engine Room, hailing the empty ship we see a shot of an Engine Room that has no Kirk and no desk with the communications console that he is using. It's also distinctly absent of McCoy and the empty uniforms! The scene then switches back to the initial Engine Room which still has all those things.
http://tos.trekcore.com/hd/albums/2x23hd/theomegagloryhd0119.jpg
http://tos.trekcore.com/hd/albums/2x23hd/theomegagloryhd0122.jpg
http://tos.trekcore.com/hd/albums/2x23hd/theomegagloryhd0135.jpg
This falls into the area of personal interpretation of on-screen events though and how literally you would like to view them.
As far as the Engine Room goes, there was a tendancy to use the straight corridor opposite that set as time went on (Day Of The Dove, Journey To Babel etc). But then you get an episode like Ultimate Computer...
Should there be at least Two Engineering control rooms, one per hull?
1st of all, let me clarify what I mean when I say “impulse Engines”. Despite fan speculation that the TOS impulse engines have some kind of field propulsion aspect to them, the original idea was that they were just advanced rockets (the true meaning of “impulse”) therefore either the saucer impulse engines or the nacelle “impulse rockets” (or both) can propel the ship at sub-light speeds without any warp field, but in this model I see the warp field as a static warp bubble with no propulsion capability to move the ship, but when the warp field is activated, either one or both impulse sources can propel the ship at hyper-light velocities.
But yes, the star-drive section needs some capability to maneuver at sub light speeds when the saucer is detached regardless of the the warp field, and yes this means that if possible the star-drive section would be the preferred section to act as a lifeboat if necessary, since it alone should be capable of both impulse and warp speeds.
And to answer some points in other posts;
Regarding “The Ultimate Computer”, we are not told the Lexington was hit in two different places, in fact, Spock says “hit on the Lexington” not, “hits” or “multiple hits on the Lexington”, so if we take Spock’s line at face value (This is where making the least amount of assumptions, and hand waving comes in) then a (single) hit in the Engineering Section possibly damaged the Impulse Engines. Granted, it might have been clearer if Spock had said something like “hit in Impulse Engines possible damage to her Engineering Section” but alas, with typical TOS vagueness this is turned on it’s head. It would, however, be interesting -but not necessarily relevant- to see if Nimoy’s line is written the way he delivered it, or if he flubbed a little here?
As for TMOST it actually refers to the Secondary Hull as the “Engineering Hull” which, as I pointed out, is never used on screen, but is one possible proper term that we could use, but nevertheless it should still not be confused with the term “Engineering Section”. The closest we come to a “canon” term for the secondary hull (and pods/nacelles) from TMOST (or is it the writers guide?) is “Star Drive Section” which is similar to Scotty’s reference to “the star drive” in “The Paradise Syndrome”, which would contrast nicely with Kirk’s use of “Main Section” to refer to the primary hull in “The Apple”.
And speaking of “The Apple” the reference to “engineering sections” does seem to be a reference to repair teams or general departments/divisions etc. and less so to any proper interior locations; so “sections” with a little “s” rather than a big “S”.
And as for “The Day OF The Dove”; as I’ve said before, the entity or “ALF” as I like to call it, is making the characters believe all kinds of crazy things, so anything they say in this episode is suspect. However I do think that the writer of this episode was basing his deck references on TMOST and therefore the dialogue could be taken at face value. But then there’s the disagreement with the FX at the end of the episode, so what to do? I think the characters believe they are confined in the primary hull and that the bulk of the crew is trapped in “the lower levels” but do, in fact, have access to the secondary hull; this way Kang thinks he’s in the Engineering Section when he is in fact in the Engineering Deck, and this is why we, the audience, see the ALF exit from the secondary hull, because that’s where the action is really taking place. But regardless, this episode requires some assumptions and hand waving in order to agree with deck references in other episodes, no matter how you slice it and dice it.
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I think this does relate to onscreen dialogue. It is frustrating that apparently the term Section might not relate to the two main unit components of the ship, but to a part of the saucer, leaving a term for just the secondary hull unclear, but "lower levels" seems as close as it would get
But that means that in "The Enemy Within," the Engine Room with no device on the floor would certainly be in the secondary hull.
Although Kang being a stranger to the Enterprise he probably just assumed it is the engineering section and it's just the Engineering Deck or a secondary engineering section on the Engineering Deck
KANG: I have captured your engineering section. I now control this ship's power and life-support systems.
I think in this one case, Engineering Section might refer to the secondary hull, being spoken by an alien. But then, it would conflict with the room supposedly being on Deck Seven.
Here's a weird idea: What if the saucer decks are numbered top-down starting at 1, but the engineering decks are labeled bottom-top, starting with 1. Then, the Engine Room would be seven decks up from the bottom of the ship, with the Auxiliary Control Room on the level just one deck above. There'd be some way of differentiating the two that the characters omit when they know what all the others are talking about.
Well, that was a clear statement of opinion
I'm not in love with that deck numbering idea either, but would you care elaborate why you feel that way? I'd welcome a canon reason to rule it out so that I don't have to consider it further.
Deck 7 was never specifically mentioned as the location of the engineering control room in Day of the Dove, so, you have no need to try and force it to be a deck numbered 7. Also, counting up from the bottom, seven decks puts you fairly high up in the secondary hull, too high.Well, that was a clear statement of opinion
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For my part I believe there were two engine rooms, one in each hull, because it seems implied from some dialogue in TOS that saucer separation was a thing, and therefore it's eminently logical for the primary hull to have its own engine room. This also cleans up the possible-probable goof in OG with the Exeter. It also helps with Enemy Within and other eps like Space Seed, where the engine room should be filled with a few of Khan's men, unconscious or not depending on how fast Khan "closed that line," but it's empty.
The major problem with this is Day of the Dove, where it's pretty clear from the dialogue that the engine room the Klingons seize is in the primary hull, but the entity exits from the secondary hull.
The major problem with this is Day of the Dove, where it's pretty clear from the dialogue that the engine room the Klingons seize is in the primary hull, but the entity exits from the secondary hull.
Possibly, but consider this. Deck Seven was the location in "The Doomsday Machine" from which failure in the main energizer was reported, so it's reasonable to conclude that Deck Seven is the location for one of the engine rooms, which agrees with TMOST.
Also, "Court Martial" identifies the deck on which "engineering" is located as "B" Deck, which might be interpreted as the second level down in in the Secondary Hull, and thus the "lower level of the "Engineering Deck" identified by Scotty in "The Enemy Within" which, by the way, was the same episode in which we get a good look at the ceiling of the same location, and which looks suspiciously like the ceiling of the the Shuttlecraft Bay, suggesting therefor that the "Engineering Deck" spans the top two decks (A & B) of the Secondary, or Engineering, Hull.
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The problem with Deck 7 is that you have to have the 11 decks in the saucer and Sickbay and the Transporters are on Deck 7. It becomes a very crowded deck. There is no room where Franz Joseph put it to actually have a 2 story engine room. There is no space before the bottom of the saucer curves up. It would have to be forward of that curve in the outside hull. That actually puts Engineering as close to sickbay and the Transporter room as they were on set. Something to think about but something I rejected. I favor 2 engine rooms with the season 1 room being in the saucer and the season 2/3 room being in the secondary hull (just about in the middle).
That's only an issue if you try to mix outside sources with what's shown on-screen. If you use only one source then it shouldn't matter.
For example: 11 decks in the saucer from TMOST or FJ? Then in that version of the ship the engine room fits in that space. It doesn't have to look like the onscreen 2 floor engine room on the show because the book is describing it's own version of the Enterprise.
If you use only onscreen evidence then that moves the 2 floor engine room closer to the center of the saucer or somewhere at the top of the secondary hull. There is a bit of freedom to place as the number of decks in each hull are never stated or shown onscreen.
Of course, YMMV
