If they had listened to Ripley people wouldn’t have died for three more movies.
Captain Marvel (2019)
- Thread starter Skywalker
- Start date
You realize that this is not a discussion of what is "sexy" to you personally, right? Regardless of whether or not you thought it was sexy, the decon scenes were presented by Bermaga as "sexy" Trek. Previous shows had not gone this far to show overtly sexual situations. Oh, almost forgot about Tripp and T'Pol's "nude" shower scene (which turned out to be T'Pol's drug induced dream).
Ent didn't just show some racist humans, it showed that humanity had transferred the things that caused racism to the things that caused xenophobia. This involved practically the whole planet.
In fact, Ent, IMO, made the most profound and subtle statements about racism of any Trek show up to that time. You need to re-watch season 4, it sounds like you may not have quite understood all that was going on. It was subtle and really quite profound.
Out of universe, Ent was the first Trek show to "play" with the cold opening. It was the first Trek show to not use Star Trek in it's title. It was the first Trek show to use a vocal in it's opening theme music.
There was crew conflict, drug addiction, pictures of crew being blown into space, the "hero" starship listing, practically destroyed, in space.
NO Trek show was more un-Roddenberry than Ent.
1. Members of the crew are blown into space in Q-Who, amongst others. Somewhat logically considering the setting, Trek seems to like using it.
2. Garak’s wire is essentially a metaphorical drug addiction, and there’s the beauty pills in TOS, Symbiosis, Katracel White, the drug addicts the Bajoran resistance left to die...
3. Kirk had fo exile racists from his bridge, Spock and McCoy were not always just ‘friendly bantering,’ Spock committed mutiny, and then there’s DS9...
4. TOS and TNG literally did destroy their hero ships permanently. DS9 too, if you consider theirs to be the Defiant.
If you think the station itself to be the hero ship, they abandoned it (and most of the citizens aboard) to their enemies out of pure self-preservation.
5. Star Trek has always had an insane amount of titillation, even post-60’s. The only difference 60’s used Vaseline on the camera lens, whereas Enterprise went for ‘mood’ lighting.
Enterprise wasn’t even the first time we had nudity!
2. Garak’s wire is essentially a metaphorical drug addiction, and there’s the beauty pills in TOS, Symbiosis, Katracel White, the drug addicts the Bajoran resistance left to die...
3. Kirk had fo exile racists from his bridge, Spock and McCoy were not always just ‘friendly bantering,’ Spock committed mutiny, and then there’s DS9...
4. TOS and TNG literally did destroy their hero ships permanently. DS9 too, if you consider theirs to be the Defiant.
If you think the station itself to be the hero ship, they abandoned it (and most of the citizens aboard) to their enemies out of pure self-preservation.
5. Star Trek has always had an insane amount of titillation, even post-60’s. The only difference 60’s used Vaseline on the camera lens, whereas Enterprise went for ‘mood’ lighting.
Enterprise wasn’t even the first time we had nudity!
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Steve is picked for the super soldier program, and is therefore our protagonist, because he’s basically the most flawless man alive. And he gets the ability to basically be as strong as he needs to be!
Seriously. His only flaw is...that he was once short. Not ugly (skinny Chris Evans is still Chris Evans). Just short.
Also, he’s just too good of a friend, gosh darn it.
Now, I personally love movie!Steve for exactly those reasons (See also: my undying love for Adam West’s Batman.) But he’s probably the last Marvel character I ever expected see anyone describe as ‘normal.’ If he were a female character,
I'm not saying these things weren't there. Just that they were their in away that still felt like it was still your average safe Trek show. You still got the familiar trappings of a Starfleet ship called the Enterprise exploring space. They still want to meet and become friends with all the aliens they meet. They did start the shake things up in the last two seasons first with a season long arc and then in the final season they went with continuity porn.
I do like the final two seasons the best but the Xindi arc still looks week compared to the Dominion War and the show was also kind of looking dated at the time compared to shows like "Farscape", "Stargate" Stargate: Atlantis and Babylon 5 which had ended before it got started and I also think the show might have been around when "Battlestar Galatica" got started. And that was just the space shows. This doesn't include stuff like X-Files,Buffy,Angel etc.
Jason
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I think it was mentioned once in passing by Hela and JD and another by Refuge. I think we did talk about some Trek Captains though and Marvel as company has come up. So at least the two words "Captain" and "Marvel" have been used.
Jason
Even Superman didn’t earn his powers just by being ‘good’ the way Cap did. He has the element of just plain, old, lucking into opportunities due to the circumstances of his birth..And there’s nothing more ‘normal’ than that!
Whereas the Super Soldier Serum in the MCU, brings ‘what’s in, out.’ It’s never worked for anyone except Cap (and was never offered to 99.9% of the population), because no one else ever passed the purity test. Even Bruce, a moral and good person who never harmed anyone, still had it turn him into Hulk due to his repressed anger.
Cap was always what Marvel was saying should be normal, even without the powers. He’s...exceptional.
And that’s my Ted Talk on why characters like Carol are more ‘normal’ and realistic than Steve. There see? I can bring it back.
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In away that was what I was trying to say. He represented what society says is normal when in reality their is no normal person. I think we were talking more about Ripley though and to me she sort of represented a new kind of normal as well. She was basically just a truck driver like the rest of the crew. They aren't astronauts or anything like that. They are kind of crusty and even Ripley in the first movie is scarred of the creature like anyone else would be even if she does beat it in the end. Her being being more of a mother figure wasn't something that was used until Aliens but even then it's done on a realistic level. She doesn't really kick ass or anything until the final fight with the forklift. The marines do most of the fighting early on until they all get killed just about.
Jason
No.
Well, ‘there’s no normal person’ is true.
But it’s got nothing to do with what I’m saying.
And no one was talking about physical ‘punch punch’ prowess being the qualifier/disqualifier you from relatability. Because that would bring us back to ‘don’t watch superheroes’, and would instantly disqualify the provided ‘better’ example of Cap.
There were shots from outside of Voyager of crewmen flying out into space? I'll have to watch that episode again.
T'Pol's addiction wasn't "metaphorical addiction". We are shown T'Pol nearly killing herself in order to get to a supply of her Trellium and then using that drug. We are later shown the affects of T'pol's Trellium use when she is "frozen" by uncontrolled emotion while the NX- 01 is under attack by the Xindi. I'm not aware of any other times drug use was depicted as graphically and directly.
Yes, Jayson mentioned this type of thing in one of his posts. However, what I was pointing out was that Ent showed nearly ALL of Rodenberry's earth utopia nearly united in their hatred for aliens. We had never before seen this in TV Trek.
Yes, we've seen the hero ship destroyed in the movies, but I don't think we've seen anything like the image of the NX-01 listing in space with smoke pouring from it's necelles at the end of Azati Prime.
No need for imagination, and what happens to the ship doesn't get erased by a reset.
But the mood lighting didn't obscure at all what we were seeing the way vaseline obscures detail. It's never been done like this in TV Trek. Also I can't think of another episode in the other spins that showed two people ostensibly naked, making out in the shower.
When was there another time?
Jayson, if you ever want to respond to my previous post directly, by all means please do, and I'll be happy to continue the discussion. But broadly replying with vague generalities involving other shows is not worth my time.
Also, your previous post needs to be edited in order to separate your replies from the quotes.
Also, your previous post needs to be edited in order to separate your replies from the quotes.
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I'm not sure what else to add. I just didn't see the racism of humanity really their in the early seasons. Except with the Vulcans. I do think that would maybe count but I was thinking more of human on human bigotry. I'm not sure how different Archer not liking Vulcans is from 24th century humans disliking the Ferengi for example. Except I do think the "Enterprise" writers might have been more conscious of it. The Berman era writers kind of didn't think anything was really wrong with the hatred of the Ferengi except maybe on DS9 when they noticed how Shiremann was playing Quark for real and not as a joke so they actually started actually seeing the Ferengi as a culture and not just a endless punchline.
Jason
I saw Captain Marvel. It's a great movie and Carol is one of the finest female heroes in film. Goose the cat is now the best cat on film.
Better than Spot? I know he was only in the first TNG Trek movie but it was a movie.
Jason
Yes. I will extend this to all forms of media in human history. I cannot be sure when it comes to prehistory due to lack of records.
$5 says that wasn’t the first take or cat.
1.) First season of TNG had an entire episode deal with drug addiction.
2.)DS9 not only had conflict between the crew on a regular basis, but routinly had them question that perfect Utopia paradise that Roddenberry created . Watch episodes The Maquis, Seige of AR-166 or The Jem-Hadar.
3.) Enterprise not putting Star Trek in the title isn't groundbreaking. All that's accomplishing is telling the entire world that you're scared to admit that it's a Star Trek show.
2.)DS9 not only had conflict between the crew on a regular basis, but routinly had them question that perfect Utopia paradise that Roddenberry created . Watch episodes The Maquis, Seige of AR-166 or The Jem-Hadar.
3.) Enterprise not putting Star Trek in the title isn't groundbreaking. All that's accomplishing is telling the entire world that you're scared to admit that it's a Star Trek show.
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1. To be fair, Trek always dealt with current issues and drugs abuse were very much in the public eye at the time. Every 80s/90s show has at least one drug episode. Even Jim Henson's Dinosaurs which mocked the very concept by asking that viewers stay off drugs just so shows wouldn't have to make preachy episodes.
2. Roddenberry was dead at that point and they had dropped that rule. This is why TNG brought in Ensign Ro. It wasn't so much arguments but really more about the crew butting heads and disagreeing with each other, but with respect because they were professionals.
3. They were trying to make it hip and they failed worse than Poochie. We're lucky no one rapped on the show.
Cannot help but agree.
