Engine Room(s) on the TOS Enterprise (revisited)
- Thread starter Henoch
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I always hear more than sabotage and tranquility.
Just for fun, I thought I would run some approximate measurements on the "nacelle room" from One Of Our Planets Is Missing:
http://tas.trekcore.com/gallery/thumbnails.php?album=44&page=15
http://tas.trekcore.com/gallery/thumbnails.php?album=3&page=7
As is not uncommon in TAS the scale is irregular, but can can assume the door is between 78" and 84" high
We see a total of 6 rows of those energy pipes in a sideways pan (not on Trekcore), but a total of 8 can be assumed from this shot:
Depending on the height of the door that Scott and Kirk first enter from, the whole room need not be more than 80 feet long by 35 feet high, certainly not more than 100 feet long.
The structure would definitely fit into the secondary hull (which could also be nicknamed the "antimatter nacelle" in this scenario) but what would explain its cylindrical design?
Could it run along the centreline of the secondary hull, behind the main dish structure?
http://tas.trekcore.com/gallery/thumbnails.php?album=44&page=15
http://tas.trekcore.com/gallery/thumbnails.php?album=3&page=7
As is not uncommon in TAS the scale is irregular, but can can assume the door is between 78" and 84" high
We see a total of 6 rows of those energy pipes in a sideways pan (not on Trekcore), but a total of 8 can be assumed from this shot:
Depending on the height of the door that Scott and Kirk first enter from, the whole room need not be more than 80 feet long by 35 feet high, certainly not more than 100 feet long.
The structure would definitely fit into the secondary hull (which could also be nicknamed the "antimatter nacelle" in this scenario) but what would explain its cylindrical design?
Could it run along the centreline of the secondary hull, behind the main dish structure?
It's obviously in the nacelle. It can't fit into the 340' secondary hull and leave room for anything else (unless you have the brewery edition of the Enterprise
). The power tubes must connect to something beyond the 35-40' diameter room, like warp devices to generate the warp field. If these devices are ~10 thick plus a little gap to the outer skin thickness, we are at 60' diameter, the diameter of the nacelle. I also estimated the room length to be a perfect cylinder about 100 feet long, but we never really see the full size in a single frame, so, the length could be 16 tubes and 200 feet just as easily.Terminology: By definition, a nacelle is the outer housing of an aircraft engine. The entire warp nacelle may be segmented along its ~500 ft length by engine function with an associated housing (nacelle segment) around each functional area. So, the aft antimatter portions of the warp engine would be in the antimatter nacelle. The M/A functions of the warp engine would be in the matter-antimatter nacelle. The forward matter portions of the warp engine would be in the matter nacelle. The entire warp engine would be the warp nacelle. So when Spock reported pieces of the antimatter nacelle, he was referring to a chunk of the rear portion of the warp nacelle which housed the antimatter functions of the engine.
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Just for fun, I thought I would run some approximate measurements on the "nacelle room" from One Of Our Planets Is Missing:
http://tas.trekcore.com/gallery/thumbnails.php?album=44&page=15
http://tas.trekcore.com/gallery/thumbnails.php?album=3&page=7
As is not uncommon in TAS the scale is irregular, but can can assume the door is between 78" and 84" high
We see a total of 6 rows of those energy pipes in a sideways pan (not on Trekcore), but a total of 8 can be assumed from this shot:
Depending on the height of the door that Scott and Kirk first enter from, the whole room need not be more than 80 feet long by 35 feet high, certainly not more than 100 feet long.
The structure would definitely fit into the secondary hull (which could also be nicknamed the "antimatter nacelle" in this scenario) but what would explain its cylindrical design?
Could it run along the centreline of the secondary hull, behind the main dish structure?
It looks like someone just copied the interior of a 1930's dirigible framework for the TAS nacelle. Does it fit in the warp nacelle?
Also, the horizontal cylinder with the pipes is not on the center but shifted vertically down. That would suggest the vertical/angled pipes are not equal length.
A nacelle is any covering, container, or pod attached to the outside of an aircraft or other streamlined vehicle. It can contain fuel, cover the engines, or serve another purpose. It comes from French meaning little boat. In Star Trek parlance it has meant the warp engine housing. However, that may not be what it meant to all the writers. I think a lot of the instances should have been changed to warp nacelle if they been edited correctly. The existing menagerie of term feels more like a mistake than anything deliberate.
Since it's a cartoon, you can make it fit. It's just a cartoon distortion of what the "real" room would be like.
As always with Trek, things that might be one thing if the episode was taken in isolation may not be that way when looking at the series as a whole
But yeah, you're probably right here
Nonetheless:
Well if we go by Scott's dialogue then this structure is the "antimatter engine" tentatively located in the secondary hull (AKA the antimatter nacelle). If the interior of the cylinder is 30' diameter then even allowing for 10' of machinery on the outside then that all easily fits into a secondary hull which even on a 947' Enterprise has a maximum diameter of around 90'
Heck, there's even space for some deck 12 and deck 14 corridors!
Hardly a first on the Enterprise. The cylindrical nature of the room as a whole (centred on the the door) would still be at home in the secondary hull IMO
Incidentally, there's nothing about this theory which is contridicted by any of the "nacelle" references in episodes, assuming that antimatter is created centrally and only mixed in the 2 outboard pods:
The Doomsday Machine, SPOCK: The energy generated by our power nacelles seems to attract {the DM}.
The Apple, KIRK: Discard the warp drive nacelles if you have to, and crack out of there with the main section, but get that ship out of there!
Bread And Circuses, SPOCK: {about the SS Beagle} Portions of the antimatter nacelles, personal belongings. Captain, no signs of bodies whatsoever.
By Any Other Name, SCOTT: I have opened the control valves to the matter-anti-matter nacelles.
The Savage Curtain, KIRK: Disengage nacelles, Jettison if possible.
The Apple, KIRK: Discard the warp drive nacelles if you have to, and crack out of there with the main section, but get that ship out of there!
Bread And Circuses, SPOCK: {about the SS Beagle} Portions of the antimatter nacelles, personal belongings. Captain, no signs of bodies whatsoever.
By Any Other Name, SCOTT: I have opened the control valves to the matter-anti-matter nacelles.
The Savage Curtain, KIRK: Disengage nacelles, Jettison if possible.
Same thoughts on both dirigible and off-center tubes. There is a chance that the horizontal core tube and pipe spokes are in the center, and the walkway, door, tubular room and its wall panelling are off-center...i.e. a tube in a tube off-centered (A) or centered (B)?
Same thoughts on both dirigible and off-center tubes. There is a chance that the horizontal core tube and pipe spokes are in the center, and the walkway, door, tubular room and its wall panelling are off-center...i.e. a tube in a tube off-centered (A) or centered (B)?
Also of note is that the energy bolts travel from the circumference in towards the center shaft. Perhaps the energy/plasma/whatever travels from the outside edge of the nacelle cap reactors and is then redirected from the outside in to the center shaft.
I'm really not fond of (A) if you're going to stick to the door-centred TAS design.Same thoughts on both dirigible and off-center tubes. There is a chance that the horizontal core tube and pipe spokes are in the center, and the walkway, door, tubular room and its wall panelling are off-center...i.e. a tube in a tube off-centered (A) or centered (B)?
Conduits of different lengths are not that much of a problem, are they? The nacelles themselves taper from front to back, so it's not like everything is equal up there anyway
Self-Sealing Stem Bolts?
And I say, apply 60 years of jet engine mounting knowledge to the warp engines, which are supposed to mimic "quick change units". While I acknowledge the question of scale, jet engines use surprisingly few mount points to stay attached to planes and require none of the overbuilt internal support too often proposed for warp nacelles.
Here's a short video on the installation of an A-10 Warthog engine. (4:44 long. Relevant view at about 0:32.)
Here's a short video on the installation of an A-10 Warthog engine. (4:44 long. Relevant view at about 0:32.)
Since the warp engines don't actually apply thrust they don't need uber mega bulky attachment either. They just need to be able to withstand a couple Gs from shakes and turns.
Great video, that engine has far fewer points than I would have imagined! However, the cowling it sits in looks very firmly anchored to the body of the plane, which is more like the Star Trek equivalent of the nacelle and pylon, whereas the A10 engine in the vid is more akin to the warp coils.
Exactly what I was going to say. Very similar to a car engine. I have an mid 70's chevy and the engine/transmission is held in place with 3 bolts. I know from my hobby of studying aircraft accidents that how the engine is bolted on is one of the most highly inspected parts of a plane. But in terms of structue, the warp pylons would be more like the wings. They are long and thin and have to endure a lot of stress. So the pylons and their attachment at either end would need to be very strong. It either needs to be very flexible to avoid breaking, or be stiff enough to endure the necessary forces. Wings have come in both types.
The weight and forces of the a-10 engines are carried mostly by two engine mount frames (you can see the aft one at 0:34. It is the sickle-shaped member arcing over the top. The other one is just aft of the ring.) The rest of the cowling is to protect the engine and provide aerodynamics. As for wings, maybe learn a little bit more about their structure (like how wing spars are what carry the loads*) and a "beefy" wing may be that way, not for structure, but because that is where the fuel tanks are.
Anyway, what I am really arguing against is the stupid over-the-top BS like Cary L Brown posted in his take on the Enterprise back in the day.
https://www.trekbbs.com/threads/another-take-on-the-original-enterprise.89810/page-3#post-2886453
https://www.trekbbs.com/threads/another-take-on-the-original-enterprise.89810/page-13#post-3030095
This post, however has an image that is topical.
https://www.trekbbs.com/threads/another-take-on-the-original-enterprise.89810/page-6#post-2917560
*(mostly)
Anyway, what I am really arguing against is the stupid over-the-top BS like Cary L Brown posted in his take on the Enterprise back in the day.
https://www.trekbbs.com/threads/another-take-on-the-original-enterprise.89810/page-3#post-2886453
https://www.trekbbs.com/threads/another-take-on-the-original-enterprise.89810/page-13#post-3030095
This post, however has an image that is topical.
https://www.trekbbs.com/threads/another-take-on-the-original-enterprise.89810/page-6#post-2917560
*(mostly)
Ah, I completely take your point there! It was an interesting study in 20th century style engineering (and one I followed with interest back in the day) but then he went and broke his own rules by introducing a "super strong plate" at the top of the dorsal section. This mechanism (made of unspecified materials) would both attach the dorsal to the saucer securely at all times AND allow for saucer separation when required.
CLB admitted it was a bit of a cheat, but it did raise the obvious question as to why Starfleet engineers wouldn't have used the same technology to attach the dorsal to the secondary hull, or the pylons to the nacelles etc.
