Spoilers Discovery and the Novelverse - TV show discussion thread

[Damian]

In this way, IMO, because of this DSN was much more in sync for me with TOS than TNG or the other series have been. And this is why I prefer TOS and DSN above the others as much as I do. TNG and VGR in particular tended toward a level of snugness that really turned me off. Stores about smart people who don't screw up are a hell of a lot less interesting than stores about smart people who try to do the right thing but sometimes hit the wall in doing so. Aaron Sorkin has a phrase that pops up from time to time that I love: "We did a good thing badly." TOS, DSN, The West Wing, The Newsroom, Sports Night - these are shows that I am attracted to because they have a tone that is aspirational - maybe we're doing okay, but we can do better. TNG always came off as yup, Earth's perfect now, so let's go enlighten all those pesky aliens. Blechh.

All of the above is IMO, and YMMV.

Yeah, it wasn't something that bothered me about DS9. I actually don't mind the utopian vision in TNG and Voyager either. I like a bit of variety so the shows having different things they focus on was never a problem for me. And I've been able to reconcile it all in my own mind. We didn't really start seeing the 'dark side' of the Federation until the Dominion came on the scene. The Changelings I figured spooked some of the brass. I mean, it'd probably make anyone a bit paranoid if you had a hostile species that could mimic everything about a person, even a high ranking admiral or politician. It probably caused the Federation to do things it wouldn't normally do. So it works for me.

 

[Christopher]

Yeah, I don't deny things like that. But it's sort of a contradiction I guess you can say I have. When it comes to one episode issues like that, a contradiction doesn't bug me a whole lot.

It's not just one episode, though. The lie-detector chair was used in two or three different episodes. And the computer showed a similar ability in "Mudd's Women," though it was explained as checking against the records.

And yes, production design is a pet peeve of mine that I have a hard time reconciling because it's something you see throughout a series. I know you say it's all about creative freedom. And I don't want to crimp someone's creative style. I just wish they had worked a bit more from the existing foundation. Production design is one of those things though you see over and over again, so I can't just poo poo it away like I could a single episode occurrence, or some minor creative embellishments.

I agree with you -- I wish they hadn't changed quite so much. But I'm not going to pretend it's the first time in Trek history that any such change has been made, and I'm not going to whine that it's impossible to reconcile and demands an alternate universe. Some people have said that about the changes in every previous new Trek incarnation, and it's never stuck. Fandom has always found a way to live with the inconsistencies, suspend disbelief, and continue to accept the storytellers' premise that the overall universe fits together.

But the Klingon design was a pretty radical change.

That's what we said in 1979.

It just seemed you were pretty nonchalant about contradictions but you go to a lot of trouble to present explanations in your books to make them work together (and other authors as well). So I figured they must bug you just a little bit.

For the fourth time, I was speaking of my perspective as a reader and viewer of fiction. I don't get confused when I read or watch two different stories that aren't in continuity with each other. I don't need it explained to me why they aren't.

 

[Damian]

It's not just one episode, though. The lie-detector chair was used in two or three different episodes.

Ok, I'll grant you that. It's just one of those things that didn't bother me a whole lot. I mean sometimes I might think, "hmm, why didn't they use this from a prior episode" (like the boots from TFF--those would have come in handy). And sometimes technology in Star Trek is one and done. But I agree about some suspension of disbelief.

But I'm not going to pretend it's the first time in Trek history that any such change has been made, and I'm not going to whine that it's impossible to reconcile and demands an alternate universe. Some people have said that about the changes in every previous new Trek incarnation, and it's never stuck.

I think with Discovery the issue I've been having is just the sheer amount. And it's the first time I've run across the issue where I can't just easily explain away the inconsistencies. With TNG it was almost a century later, making it pretty easy to explain away inconsistencies. And I applauded Enterprise actually for striking what I thought was a good balance between looking futuristic but still evoking a more primitive era from the original series. I actually thought they did an excellent job there. Discovery looks and feels like it's 2 centuries ahead of the original series. Where with Enterprise I could reasonably think it was 100 years pre-original series--not an easy feat when you think about it. This is a new thing for me.

That's what we said in 1979.

You had to bring that up . Ok, I guess I'll have to grant you that. I sometimes forget about that because my first exposure to Star Trek was the movies. Though I'll admit I was a bit taken back when I saw "Friday's Child" which was the first time I saw an original series Klingon. I was like 'I don't see any Klingons'. And I know people say there were some changes to Klingons after that. But I always argued they were clearly in the same 'family'.

And I think part of it for me was Enterprise went to a lot of trouble explaining why there are ridged Klingons and smooth Klingons. I personally enjoyed those episodes and in story they made some sense (it's not perfect, but it worked), and I'm a bit protective of that I guess. Discovery sort of just flushed that down the toilet I think. Now the Klingons seemed to have been infected with some xenomorph DNA from Alien.

For the fourth time, I was speaking of my perspective as a reader and viewer of fiction. I don't get confused when I read or watch two different stories that aren't in continuity with each other. I don't need it explained to me why they aren't.

Ok, I surrender on this point. But I do enjoy when they are explained so keep up the good work

 

[Christopher]

I think with Discovery the issue I've been having is just the sheer amount.

Again, I agree with you. But -- we will adjust to it, just like we always have before. Fans went through the same thing 40 years ago with TMP, and we survived. Heck, consider what an enormous adjustment TNG was -- not just a change in set and prop and alien design, but a then-unprecedented change in the entire focus of the franchise, to a new century and new characters and new species. That was a far more radical change for fandom to adjust to than anything you're dealing with now, because you've had time to get used to the idea of a Trek series introducing new characters and settings. And it took years for fandom to reconcile itself to the idea that something could be Star Trek without conforming to their past expectations of what Star Trek was. But they did adjust. It didn't break Trek and it didn't break fandom.

Adjusting to change is part of life. It's part of being a grown-up. There are bigger changes we have to adjust to in life than a made-up TV show making up different stuff than before.

 

[Greg Cox]

I don’t know about that. My boy is convinced that the Harry Potter films are more authentic than the books. Of course, he’s eight, so…

I know you're joking, but I should probably clarify that I was only talking about tie-in novels based on movies and TV shows and games. Movies adapted from pre-existing novels are a whole other story.

 

[GNDN18]

I know you're joking, but I should probably clarify that I was only talking about tie-in novels based on movies and TV shows and games. Movies adapted from pre-existing novels are a whole other story.

I understood that, and as a fan I agree, but it did remind me of the Kid Doctor’s perspective on source material.

His approach to criticism is—not surprisingly—on the timey-wimey side.

 

[Damian]

Again, I agree with you. But -- we will adjust to it, just like we always have before. Fans went through the same thing 40 years ago with TMP, and we survived. Heck, consider what an enormous adjustment TNG was -- not just a change in set and prop and alien design, but a then-unprecedented change in the entire focus of the franchise, to a new century and new characters and new species. That was a far more radical change for fandom to adjust to than anything you're dealing with now, because you've had time to get used to the idea of a Trek series introducing new characters and settings. And it took years for fandom to reconcile itself to the idea that something could be Star Trek without conforming to their past expectations of what Star Trek was. But they did adjust. It didn't break Trek and it didn't break fandom.

Adjusting to change is part of life. It's part of being a grown-up. There are bigger changes we have to adjust to in life than a made-up TV show making up different stuff than before.

Well I'll admit with TNG I wasn't sold on the idea of Star Trek without Kirk and Spock. And the first season was a bit uneven to say the least. But I stuck with it and it ended up being a great show.

But it really wasn't a continuity issue there. It was, could you have Star Trek without Kirk and Spock? That was a little different I thought then what we have with Discovery.

But, as I keep saying, while I have a hard time wrapping my head around how different Discovery is, I'm open minded enough that my opinion may change as I watch the series further. And for me it's not an issue of it not having that fundamental Trekkiness to it. It does feel like a Star Trek show otherwise.

And you guys are probably right. When some future show contradicts something that happened on Discovery 15 years from now, we'll all be screaming bloody murder . It's a right of passage for Star Trek fans to complain.

 

[Christopher]

But it really wasn't a continuity issue there. It was, could you have Star Trek without Kirk and Spock?

Yes, and that's an even bigger adjustment to make. Continuity is incidental. It's a side issue, a few bits and pieces here and there. Changing whether they have holograms or whether Klingons are purple is tiny next to changing the entire focus and setting of the series for the first time. By now, it's happened so often that we've forgotten what a seismic change it was when it was first attempted. The negative reaction was so intense that even the majority of the TOS cast joined in.

 

[Greg Cox]

Yes, and that's an even bigger adjustment to make. Continuity is incidental. It's a side issue, a few bits and pieces here and there. Changing whether they have holograms or whether Klingons are purple is tiny next to changing the entire focus and setting of the series for the first time. By now, it's happened so often that we've forgotten what a seismic change it was when it was first attempted. The negative reaction was so intense that even the majority of the TOS cast joined in.

And there was other stuff in TNG that made us old-school Trekkies raise an eyebrow. Wait, there was a nuclear war in Earth's past? I thought the whole point of STAR TREK was that we avoided blowing ourselves up? Why is everyone treating Data as so unique after all the androids we saw in "What Little Girls are Made Of?," "I, Mudd," and "Requiem for Methuselah"? Why did they reboot "The Squire of Gothos" as this Q guy?

And speaking of Klingon death howls, where the heck did that come from? Don't remember Kang or Kruge or whoever howling whenever one of their men was killed. There was no such thing as a Klingon "death howl" on TOS or in any of the TOS movies.

The point is that, despite some grumbling, we kinda took this stuff in stride and didn't shout from the mountaintops that this was not REAL trek, that this was not the TOS timeline, that TNG was "alienating" all True Fans by brazenly disregarding "canon" . . . .

"Klingon death howl? Oh yeah, how come this was never mentioned in any of the real STAR TREK episodes or movies? Answer me that! Why won't Roddenberry stop lying to us and admit that TNG isn't in the same timeline as the Original Series . .. ... "

 

[Leto_II]

A few Litverse-related things I was thinking about, after having rewatched this latest episode:

1. Mirror Georgiou's mention of having "[wiped] the Talosians and their stupid singing plants off the face of their planet" (or words to that effect) in her own universe seems to be incompatible with the Litverse Mirror Universe stories, specifically "The Greater Good" from the Shards and Shadows anthology, which depicts the Mirror Pike still under the control of the Mirror Talosians as late as 2264, with the Terran Empire deciding to quarantine the Talos star system in that same year.

My possible retfix for this? What Mirror Georgiou thought she experienced was simply another Talosian illusion (which would be consistent with onscreen dialogue in "The Cage" regarding the sheer ability of the Talosians to make a starship crew obey their commands), and at some point between 2257 and 2264 (after Empress Georgiou's disappearance), the empire somehow realizes that the Talosians are still around (through as-yet-unrevealed means), ultimately leading to the events of the Shards and Shadows short story. She also would have had to have ventured to Talos IV at some point between 2254 and late 2257, after the I.S.S. Enterprise's initial visit in that story, which could've very easily have been a follow-up investigation into Mirror Pike's original encounter there, perhaps leading to the Talosians tricking her into believing she committed genocide against their entire race.

2. The shuttlecraft computer in the previous episode ("Light and Shadows") establishes a much-narrower timeframe for the Talos IV cataclysm than described in previous canon, with the computer in the episode mentioning that the event occurred "several thousand years ago," but this is massively contradictory to both Vina's own dialogue in "The Cage" ("War...thousands of centuries ago") as well as to Burning Dreams, which uses the TOS onscreen figure as the basis for its estimation of approximately 200,000 years prior to the episode. That said, the DSC episode is highly consistent with the novel with regards to its mention of a nuclear war having devastated the planetary surface, the first time a canonical source has confirmed this (though the general implication was always sorta there even way back in the 1964 episode).

3. Forests on the edge of Vulcan's Forge -- I think this is the first time that this has ever been seen (IIRC, not even ENT depicted this in its fourth season...indeed, Trip outright describes the Forge as a "hellhole"), but have any of the books (like the Sherman/Shwartz novels) mentioned something like this previously? I last reread the Vulcan's [NOUN] series several years ago, and I can't remember anything other than pure desert separating Shi'Kahr from the Forge in those books. TAS: "Yesteryear" doesn't give any indicator of this, either.

EDIT: Just double-checked Memory Alpha, and it looks like the "Gateway" site on Vulcan (sitting at the very edge of the Forge, leading directly into it) from ENT has absolutely no visible vegetation to speak of, at least according to the screenshots I've looked at:

...So maybe the forests are simply further back in the opposite direction, "offscreen" towards the city itself?

 

[JD]

I think I figured out what why the changes in Discovery feel so different from the others over the years. Most of the time the changes happened as we went forward, so we could just say it was things changing as time moved on. When we did get Enterprise, even if the overall designs were more modern, the still made an effort to make the Trek technologies feel more primitive. But with Discovery they have just gone all out with the new more futuristic technologies, and since it's between ENT and TOS it's a bit harder to just explain away.

 

[Christopher]

And there was other stuff in TNG that made us old-school Trekkies raise an eyebrow. Wait, there was a nuclear war in Earth's past? I thought the whole point of STAR TREK was that we avoided blowing ourselves up?

TOS established a Third World War in "Space Seed" and "Bread and Circuses." The latter gave it a death toll of 37 million. So it was always part of the established backstory; TNG just elaborated on it. (Although I think that in "Encounter at Farpoint," Roddenberry was recycling ideas from his Genesis II/Planet Earth pilots, about humanity trying to rebuild civilization after a nuclear apocalypse.)

And speaking of Klingon death howls, where the heck did that come from? Don't remember Kang or Kruge or whoever howling whenever one of their men was killed. There was no such thing as a Klingon "death howl" on TOS or in any of the TOS movies.

For me, the big change was that they were suddenly all honorable and noble. The chapter on villains in The Making of Star Trek had made it clear that the Klingons celebrated treachery and deceit and believed that "honor is a despicable trait." It was the Romulans who were the honorable ones. TNG completely inverted the cultural character of the Klingons and Romulans so that having the Klingons as allies could be justified. Now, that was a major continuity alteration.

The point is that, despite some grumbling, we kinda took this stuff in stride and didn't shout from the mountaintops that this was not REAL trek, that this was not the TOS timeline, that TNG was "alienating" all True Fans by brazenly disregarding "canon" . . . .

A number of fans did. A lot of them resisted accepting TNG as real Trek for years. Heck, there were some purists who never accepted it. Remember the rather infamous fan James Dixon? He never accepted that anything after TMP was "real" Trek. He had an almost religious devotion to the version of Trek continuity that had been established by the shows and books in the '60s and '70s, and seeing that all invalidated by TNG was like heresy to him, and he condemned it in the fiercest possible terms. And I've encountered two or three other fans on this BBS in more recent years who feel the same, even decades after the fact.

 

[Jarvisimo]

AI, threat assessment, it gives orders.
Its all there.
Hell, you could even fit the apparent wider knowledge of S31 during the show within what we know from Control - the book mentions that it had dissolved and reformed the organisation multiple times over its 200 year life. Figures if it has to disappear again in the 23rd century it could just wipe all knowledge of its existence from UFP records and become the much lesser known entity by DS9's time.

The only thing that doesn't work is so many Vulcans and other long-lived species both in the Fed and out of it (Klingons, etc.) will be alive 120 years in the future - it seems unlikely that something could really vanish if it is that public as Discovery presents it, especially if it involves leading families of the Federation such as Spock's, which taps into the leading Vulcan and council-affiliated families, and foreign/compromised agents like Ash.

 

[Mysterion]

(Although I think that in "Encounter at Farpoint," Roddenberry was recycling ideas from his Genesis II/Planet Earth pilots, about humanity trying to rebuild civilization after a nuclear apocalypse.)

Too bad there's not more room in the timeline - having Pax and Dylan Hint in Trek's past as a progenitor of sorts for the Federation/Starfleet could be interesting. Also, you'd have to find a way to explain the Kreeg...

 

[Christopher]

Too bad there's not more room in the timeline - having Pax and Dylan Hint in Trek's past as a progenitor of sorts for the Federation/Starfleet could be interesting. Also, you'd have to find a way to explain the Kreeg...

My headcanon is that Genesis II/Planet Earth is the timeline that Gary Seven prevented by stopping the orbital nuclear program (in "Assignment: Earth") and Project Chrysalis (as per the Eugenics Wars duology). Without Gary, there's more of a nuclear buildup in the '70s, leading to the building of the underground subshuttle system due to fear of nukes from above. When the Eugenics Wars happen, they're on a much bigger scale with more nukes, so they become a global apocalypse. The Tyranians and the Kreeg are descended from some of the more ambitious Augment experiments that would've happened if Gary hadn't stopped the program.

In the Prime timeline, without the threat of orbital nukes, Dylan Hunt's cryogenics experiment was conducted aboveground, so he was never caught in that cave-in. Perhaps his research helped lead to the DY-100 sleeper ships.

 

[Greg Cox]

TOS established a Third World War in "Space Seed" and "Bread and Circuses." The latter gave it a death toll of 37 million. So it was always part of the established backstory; TNG just elaborated on it. (Although I think that in "Encounter at Farpoint," Roddenberry was recycling ideas from his Genesis II/Planet Earth pilots, about humanity trying to rebuild civilization after a nuclear apocalypse.)

And, yet, wasn't there a bit in "The Omega Glory" (I think) where they talk about that world suffering the nuclear war Earth avoided or some such thing? And, of course, the war mentioned in "Encounter to Farpoint" didn't match up, date-wise, with the Eugenics Wars cited in "Space Seed."

Plus, I confess, I always resisted the idea that Gary Seven somehow ultimately failed in his mission, since his whole raison d'etre was preventing Earth from having an atomic war . ....

 

[Christopher]

And, yet, wasn't there a bit in "The Omega Glory" (I think) where they talk about that world suffering the nuclear war Earth avoided or some such thing?

A nuclear war big enough to send civilization back to the Bronze Age, yes, Earth did avoid that. There was a Third World War that was bigger than the Second, but not big enough to end civilization entirely.

And, of course, the war mentioned in "Encounter to Farpoint" didn't match up, date-wise, with the Eugenics Wars cited in "Space Seed."

Of course it didn't, since it came out only 6 years before the purported start of the Eugenics Wars.

Plus, I confess, I always resisted the idea that Gary Seven somehow ultimately failed in his mission, since his whole raison d'etre was preventing Earth from having an atomic war . ....

His mission was to make sure humanity survived long enough to gain the maturity to solve its own problems. He succeeded by making sure that, when the war came, it was limited enough that humanity would survive and recover.

 

[Mysterion]

In the Prime timeline, without the threat of orbital nukes, Dylan Hunt's cryogenics experiment was conducted aboveground, so he was never caught in that cave-in. Perhaps his research helped lead to the DY-100 sleeper ships.

This works really well for me. Never crossed my mind to apply it in this way. Also, having Gary Seven prevent Genesis II/Planet Earth from happening is pretty spiffy as well.

Now we just need to establish Noonien Soong basing his work off an obscure scientist from the 1970's named Vaslovik… (I know the novel Immortal Coil touched on this somewhat.) And if we want to go for the trifecta, we just need to wedge Spectre in somehow.

 

[Christopher]

Now we just need to establish Noonien Soong basing his work off an obscure scientist from the 1970's named Vaslovik… (I know the novel Immortal Coil touched on this somewhat.)

Yeah, it's been hinted in several novels (a couple of them mine) that Flint learned about robotics from Vaslovik and/or Questor, and then Soong learned from Flint.

And if we want to go for the trifecta, we just need to wedge Spectre in somehow.

I tried, but since it's straight-up supernatural horror, I couldn't make it work. I suppose you could stretch it if you pretended that the demons in the movie were some kind of aliens, a la the Invasion! novels or "The Magicks of Megas-tu" (or the original 1966 Assignment: Earth pilot script, for that matter), but I think that's too much of a betrayal of the movie's intent that the demonic forces be exactly what they appeared to be.

I also decided against trying to fit in Pretty Maids All in a Row, since it's too absurd a comedy to believe it "really" happened in a serious universe. I do wonder about The Lieutenant, though.

 

[Mysterion]

I do wonder about The Lieutenant, though.

The Lieutenant could certainly work as part of the Trek continuity. I've only seen a couple or three episodes, but I didn't see anything really outrageous that would keep it out of contention.

And as long as we're trying to fit Rodenberry show's into Trek continuity - I thing Earth Final Conflict and (sadly) Andromeda would be a bit too far afield to even consider.