Engine Room(s) on the TOS Enterprise (revisited)
- Thread starter Henoch
- Start date
Would one of the repair crew put on red coveralls to do dirty repair work? He had about 3 seconds to change clothes.
Since the previous scene shows Scott and crew next to the console wall nearest the grille, they could have been trying to match the same area from S1 to set up the next two inserted tilt footage scenes (right then left tilts with break to Aux. Control). Reuse of the footage was planned ahead of time and not an afterthought in edit. The director/producer must have had a real hard-on to reuse that footage. I think we need to forget about the continuity issues and assume it was the same room. The last beating of this dead horse; here are the two footages expertly spliced together:
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Technically, either one of the blue or yellow shirt guys had 10-18 seconds to put on the coveralls and Scotty has plenty of time to take off and then put back on the tricorder with the way the scene is cut. You can omit it but I think I'll keep this quirk in the episode as it adds variety to the engine room setup where there is a room that has no DTD like in "That Which Survives".
On location of things:
Back in 2012, Robert Comsol re-labelled the secondary hull decks (Kirk's Television Enterprise Deck Plans WIP) which put "Engineering Deck" 8 with Aux. Control at the top forward in the secondary hull. The onscreen scenes in the DM suggest a narrow hull at the entry beam-in point. Also, Aux. Control Ceiling Beams are highly curved in all directions suggesting the complex hull curvature at this location. This re-labelling also put deck 12 at the widest part of secondary hull for those Mudd's Women cabins. I assume Engineering Deck 1 would be the top of the dorsal neck below the Impulse Engine Deck in the Saucer, then count down. So, his ship deck system would be "Deck" 1-11 (YMMV) in the Saucer/Primary Hull, and "Engineering Deck" 1-11 plus "Engineering Deck" or just "Deck" 12+ in the Secondary Hull. He also had 4 "Engineering Levels (1-4 or A, B, C, D?)" subdivided in those Engineering Decks with lots of circular and curved corridors. He used the 1080 foot ship, so, he had more room to play around. I often reference his deck plans especially when I want to get a perspective on scene locations from various episodes. Lots of fun.
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Yeah, I remember that thread (and revisit it occasionally), and I definitely see the logic in that deck numbering system. It resolves difficulties from a few different episodes. (Granted it might seem a bit confusing when characters don't specify which hull they're referring to, but then 1-7 in the dorsal and secondary hull are probably too small to get much use, as are 10-11 in the saucer, so that really only leaves decks 8-9 as likely sources of misunderstanding most of the time.)
That said, of course we don't actually know (A) whether the Constellation has its Auxiliary Control room in the same place as the Enterprise, or for that matter (B) whether either ship has only one such room. Even the dialogue I mentioned from "I, Mudd" might quite reasonably be interpreted as specifying "Deck 8, Auxiliary Control" so that the listener would know which AC room was being specified!...
BTW, I'm (literally) not sure I see what you're referring to when you say Aux Control has ceiling beams "highly curved in all directions"; at least from the screen caps, it looks just like most other rooms on board.
Not again.
Not again what? I'm just saying, I see one curved ceiling beam, not unlike various other rooms aboard ship. I'm just going from screen caps and haven't rewatched the whole episode recently, so perhaps I'm forgetting something. Can you clarify? Even if the room's at the top of the secondary hull it should only have curves going in one direction, after all, right?...
I thought that was a particular clever idea and I've not seen it elsewhere either. It deals with the deck 2 issue in Enterprise Incident, deck 14 in Dagger Of The Mind and deck 12 in Enemy Within & Mudd's Women.Back in 2012, Robert Comsol re-labelled the secondary hull decks (Kirk's Television Enterprise Deck Plans WIP) which put "Engineering Deck" 8 with Aux. Control at the top forward in the secondary hull. The onscreen scenes in the DM suggest a narrow hull at the entry beam-in point. Also, Aux. Control Ceiling Beams are highly curved in all directions suggesting the complex hull curvature at this location. This re-labelling also put deck 12 at the widest part of secondary hull for those Mudd's Women cabins. I assume Engineering Deck 1 would be the top of the dorsal neck below the Impulse Engine Deck in the Saucer, then count down. So, his ship deck system would be "Deck" 1-11 (YMMV) in the Saucer/Primary Hull, and "Engineering Deck" 1-11 plus "Engineering Deck" or just "Deck" 12+ in the Secondary Hull. He also had 4 "Engineering Levels (1-4 or A, B, C, D?)" subdivided in those Engineering Decks with lots of circular and curved corridors. He used the 1080 foot ship, so, he had more room to play around. I often reference his deck plans especially when I want to get a perspective on scene locations from various episodes. Lots of fun.
Navigation inside the Enterprise might not be so hard though, especially if there wasn't a single, contiguous turboshaft which connected from the bottom of the secondary hull to the top of the Bridge. I imagine that in Pike's (and early Kirk's) time turbolift technology was no so advanced, with only vertical shafts at select points and no sideways shafts (although the cars could still rotate). This is why Kirk and Spock had such a long walk from the Transporter Room after bringing the Valiant's disaster-recorder on board and why the ride up to the Bridge was a relatively short, vertical trip. In those days, calling out a deck number would only take you to that deck in the section of the vessel you were in (saucer or engineering hull)
Such a setup would require a walk from the top of the secondary hull shaft to the main one in the saucer, but that's not such a big deal and Starfleet officers did not shy away from a little walking.
The "Turbolift 2" system would change all that...
I think that's a reference to a similar recent discussion here
https://www.trekbbs.com/threads/tos-enterprise-internals.298185/page-5
Sorry, it was two o'clock in the morning and I was tired. The guys were just grilling me over beams in the damn rec. room.I think that's a reference to a similar recent discussion here
https://www.trekbbs.com/threads/tos-enterprise-internals.298185/page-5
Those damn beams are everywhere on the ship. 
I'll work on some views, soon. I was checking if @Donny ever got around to the TOS Aux. Control Room, but so far, no luck. Thanks for the fun, guys. 
Nah, I got burnt out on my TOS project before I made it to the auxiliary control room or a season one variant of the engine room. However, those are at the top of my list when I do return to the project (I always cycle back around)Sorry, it was two o'clock in the morning and I was tired. The guys were just grilling me over beams in the damn rec. room.
Doing some research from earliest sources, I got this:
The Making of Star Trek by Whitfield and Roddenberry,1968:
For a 947 foot ship, 340 feet length is okay for the stern to front of the secondary hull (excluding the Deflector Dish). I can live with 16 engineering decks, assuming we start counting from the top of the pylon neck. I can live with the main engineering control facility (engine room) in saucer. The book says there at 11 decks in the saucer; I can live with that but the bottom "deck" only consists of the weapon suite and sensor dome, and deck two may now be squashed by the lowered Bridge in its center.
For a 947 foot ship, where did they get 112 feet in diameter for the secondary hull? I only get about 91 feet. WTF.
I assume the book is wrong based on the 33 inch and 11 foot models. Has someone here seen this before, if so, please chime in? What is the real dimension? Thanks.
The Making of Star Trek by Whitfield and Roddenberry,1968:
Page ~171,
"Propulsion for the primary hull is provided by impulse power. The impulse engine section is located at the bottom rear end of the saucer. Headquarters for the engineering division is also located in this same area, as are main engineering control facilities plus sufficient repair, storage, and other facilities to service the primary section when detached from the star-drive sections of the vessel."
Page ~190-191,
"The cigar-shaped secondary hull is 340 feet long, 112 feet in diameter, and is connected to the saucer by means of a large access pylon. The secondary hull is often referred to as the engineering hull, as much of the facilities and activities conducted in this area are devoted to that department. A number of the deck levels (there are sixteen of them) are also devoted to fuel, supply, main repair centers, water and waste reconversion, and interplanet freight. Minimal crew quarters are located in this hull, used by duty engineers and by the star-drive crew when the saucer section has detached and is operating separately."
"Propulsion for the primary hull is provided by impulse power. The impulse engine section is located at the bottom rear end of the saucer. Headquarters for the engineering division is also located in this same area, as are main engineering control facilities plus sufficient repair, storage, and other facilities to service the primary section when detached from the star-drive sections of the vessel."
Page ~190-191,
"The cigar-shaped secondary hull is 340 feet long, 112 feet in diameter, and is connected to the saucer by means of a large access pylon. The secondary hull is often referred to as the engineering hull, as much of the facilities and activities conducted in this area are devoted to that department. A number of the deck levels (there are sixteen of them) are also devoted to fuel, supply, main repair centers, water and waste reconversion, and interplanet freight. Minimal crew quarters are located in this hull, used by duty engineers and by the star-drive crew when the saucer section has detached and is operating separately."
For a 947 foot ship, 340 feet length is okay for the stern to front of the secondary hull (excluding the Deflector Dish). I can live with 16 engineering decks, assuming we start counting from the top of the pylon neck. I can live with the main engineering control facility (engine room) in saucer. The book says there at 11 decks in the saucer; I can live with that but the bottom "deck" only consists of the weapon suite and sensor dome, and deck two may now be squashed by the lowered Bridge in its center.
For a 947 foot ship, where did they get 112 feet in diameter for the secondary hull? I only get about 91 feet. WTF.
I assume the book is wrong based on the 33 inch and 11 foot models. Has someone here seen this before, if so, please chime in? What is the real dimension? Thanks.For a 947 foot ship, where did they get 112 feet in diameter for the secondary hull? I only get about 91 feet. WTF.
Using the Sinclair/Casmiro drawings I get roughly the same diameter that you are getting at around 91'. If you use MJ's drawing with the more barrel shaped hull it is wider and you can get over 100' in diameter depending on how you model it.
How much of a Refit was done after WNMHGB?
I think it was mostly interior stuff. Since we see both versions of the exterior during the series proper, it seems reasonable that the ship was able to transition between the two looks, for whatever reason.
Working through the ideas on this thread has caused me to go back and re-read a lot of older threads and discussions. Here's an interesting one from 2015 where we discussed the possibility of whether the Impulse Engines in TOS make use of antimatter at all:
https://www.trekbbs.com/threads/can-you-transport-anti-matter.201292/page-6
It also features a theory I had concerning the big "cathedral tubes" unit and what it might be:
I see those tubes as the Power Convertor Assembly (first mentioned in Mudd's Women as an alternative to using the lithium crystals). At this stage it might be worth reiterating my own interpretation of TOS-E power setup, which differs somewhat from the TNG model:
https://www.trekbbs.com/threads/can-you-transport-anti-matter.201292/page-6
It also features a theory I had concerning the big "cathedral tubes" unit and what it might be:
I see those tubes as the Power Convertor Assembly (first mentioned in Mudd's Women as an alternative to using the lithium crystals). At this stage it might be worth reiterating my own interpretation of TOS-E power setup, which differs somewhat from the TNG model:
- Matter and antimatter are mixed in the nacelle interior, with most of the resultant energy forms absorbed directly by the warp coils (without the need for messy TNG-plasma conduits).
- A portion of the energy is diverted down the pylons into secondary hull's Engine Room
- The Power Convertor Assembly changes the raw power into a form usable by ship's systems. The PCA can perform this task alone, although the presence of up to 3 dilithium crystals makes the process exponentially more efficient.
Nice work. I read the post a little while ago, but I intend to review it again. Thanks for the link.
I though long and hard on the power systems, too (like most of us tech nerds).
- Are 3 dilithium circuits (in one location or three?) needed in the secondary hull for efficient power conversion from the two warp engines, or is there a third M/AM reactor generating power; one for each source of power?
- Love using the EOT sabotage event: first, the antimatter pods (AM storage tanks?) are triggered to blow if the ship uses warp power. Predictably, Kirk then orders maximum power out of the impulse drive. Third, Scott focuses on diffusing the bomb on the antimatter pod system. In the meantime, forth, the secondary sabotage takes effect that was triggered by using the PCA's at maximum power, it creates a power surge that burns out all the ships dilithium crystals.
- For your power theory, there must be a circuit connection between the two hull systems which explains the crystal in the primary hull shorting out when the other three blew (or visa versa), hence the need for new crystals. All four crystals are networked together (maybe this network is the dilithium crystal converter assembly and not the apparatus they are installed in). Normal interlocks/fuses didn't work because of the thorough sabotage job (I noticed that Kryton worked on it for a long time). Scott stated that the whole DCCA is fused, but the apparatus was still functional to use the necklace crystals.
- Sabotage in EOT seemed to wipe out the ship's crystal network, but your engines should be fine without the dilithium circuits. Except, I assume that even though the warp engines are powered by the raw M/AM reactors in each nacelle, their controls and secondary devices (injectors, preheaters, cooling, venting, magnetic confinement) are all powered by the dilithium PCA power, so, loss of the dilithium crystals looses the warp capability.
- I put a lot of emphasis on antimatter production and distribution (storage is only a minor part of the system), but that's another story.
I'm not in total agreement with all this, but I really like the idea that the crystal in the saucer engine room is tied to the power in the secondary hull, and that "The Paradise Syndrome" may support that idea. That aligns with my interpretation that the crystal in the saucer is helping the power flow from the matter/antimatter reaction into the saucer and impulse systems. I have compared this to the Impulse Deflection Crystal in the TMP version of the ship. Some seem not to care for this idea, but along with what you say , it seems supported by evidence at least.
And perhaps the possibly bigger Impulse Deflection Crystal on the Reliant explain or help explain how a ship could be that compact and still so powerful.
Also, the Grissom in ST:III has two Impulse Deflection Crystals in its upper hull, so that would seem to prove that the engine systems are on one deck in the lowest part of the upper hull, leaving its secondary hull for unmanned systems. The struts would only be for holding the pod on the bottom of the ship, and not have warp power flow through the pylons.
So at least that part of your system works well for me.
Ahh good memories
I think it's worth revisiting the PCA cathedral tubes theory. Not quite had a chance to think about whether it fits all the scenarios though...Keep in mind that the Reliant actually has *more* volume than the Enterprise so she's not "compact". Also we never see the Reliant and Enterprise battle at full power starting in an undamaged state so we don't know what their actual power levels are. The Reliant only seems powerful because the Enterprise was crippled.
I always thought the impulse engines were fusion powered, but if a warp field is needed to lower the inertia of the ship,maybe you need both.
