Supergirl - Season Four

[Finn]

I'm aware there's no Star Labs on Earth 38. I mean I was wondering if there is/was a Harrison Wells (with a different name like we have seen on Flash) on Earth 38 and he never left whoever/whatever he was working for prior to 1990 or the company he started has a completely different name...

The Wellses on The Flash implies all of their doppelgangers are geniuses or something like that...

 

[Christopher]

Mind you, I believe the CRISIS will result in all of the worlds combining to make what amounts to the typical DCU.

Aliens, metas, and more.

I really hope not. The multiverse is an asset to the Arrowverse continuity, particularly in terms of the very different worldbuilding and history of Earth-38 as opposed to Earth-1. It would be a huge mistake creatively to eliminate that diversity. Indeed, DC recognized long ago that they'd made a mistake by wiping out the multiverse in Crisis, and they've long since restored it. So it doesn't make sense to assume that the Arrowverse would repeat the same mistake.

I mean, look how casual it's become for them to use Cisco's little extrapolator buttons to hop between universes for crossovers, or to phone up other Earths to talk to Wells doppelgangers. Interaction between universes has become so easy that there's no storytelling need for collapsing them into one. And multiversal antics are such a routine part of The Flash's storytelling now that it would be a major loss to the show. And The Flash is the highest-rated Arrowverse show, if I'm not mistaken. Thus, I really doubt that the producers have any desire to eliminate the multiverse.

I think it's more likely that their version of Crisis on Infinite Earths will be about the heroes successfully preventing the collapse of the multiverse -- probably with some worlds being lost, but many, especially the core two, surviving. After all, Elseworlds already laid the groundwork for the idea that the "destiny" of the comics characters can be changed, when Oliver convinced the Monitor to prevent the deaths of Barry and Kara (both of whom died in the comics' Crisis). Similarly, The Flash established that Cicada wasn't the same guy in their reality that he was in the comics, because Nora's time travel had altered history. So it stands to reason that they'll follow that precedent with CoIE as well -- that it will specifically be about making sure that things don't happen the same way they happened in the comics.

 

[Jayson1]

Not really. As mentioned above, any actual warships would probably have shields or defenses against it, so the only ships it could actually destroy are the harmless refugee craft. It's just pandering to fear for political gain rather than being a legitimate defense.




The DEO has had her space capsule in its possession since 2003. I'm sure they've had teams working on reverse-engineering its technology the whole time. I doubt she could provide any further help with that.




It occurs to me that what Supergirl did here was basically a larger-scale version of the classic beat where Superman or Supergirl takes a criminal's gun away from them and then crushes it in one hand. They generally don't stop to ask permission from the gun's owner before they destroy it. Their priority is human life and safety, more than the letter of the law.

It's worth remembering that Superman was originally portrayed in the comics and radio as an extralegal vigilante hunted by the police. Heck, Batman was declared an official ally of the police before Superman was. There's a long history of superheroes being more concerned with justice and public safety than strict legality.




Indeed, the ease with which President Baker did that is part of why I suspect he's in cahoots with (or under the influence of, or being impersonated by) Lex Luthor.

But there is no way for humanity to really know what is out there when it comes to alien threats. That space gun provide usefull but they should really start trying to explore space and get a better understanding about what is out there. This is has always been one flaw in the aliens as refuges metaphor because aliens from space are coming from places that can so unknown and without human values at all and with who knows what level of tech they have that it's almost impossible to know what to expect from them. Which is far cry from just regular people coming from Mexico to look for work. . Or being displaced because of earth conflicts such as war. Societies are different but in the end humans still basically have the same emotions and also abilities. It' s not like Amercians shoot lasers out of our eyes or Canadians have the power of flight and so forth.


Jason

 

[Christopher]

But there is no way for humanity to really know what is out there when it comes to alien threats. That space gun provide usefull but they should really start trying to explore space and get a better understanding about what is out there. This is has always been one flaw in the aliens as refuges metaphor because aliens from space are coming from places that can so unknown and without human values at all and with who knows what level of tech they have that it's almost impossible to know what to expect from them. Which is far cry from just regular people coming from Mexico to look for work. . Or being displaced because of earth conflicts such as war. Societies are different but in the end humans still basically have the same emotions and also abilities. It' s not like Amercians shoot lasers out of our eyes or Canadians have the power of flight and so forth.

On the other hand, you have comparable threats arising right here at home with metahumans on Earth-1, or mutants in Marvel-land, or various similar fantasy races in other franchises. What matters isn't where they come from or what abilities they have; all that really matters is what they choose to do.

 

[Jayson1]

On the other hand, you have comparable threats arising right here at home with metahumans on Earth-1, or mutants in Marvel-land, or various similar fantasy races in other franchises. What matters isn't where they come from or what abilities they have; all that really matters is what they choose to do.

But that is more about dealing with the aliens on the ground. I am thinking more about attacking earth from outer space or something like in "Independence Day." I think we can underestimate just how dangerous a possible spaceship could be that is way beyond present day level of tech. Chances are the space gun still might not work but it's better to have something in place than nothing.

This episode also made me think of something. How does Supergirl just show up to the White House and meet the President? I understand being okay with it as long as you feel they are on your side but once Supergirl quit the DEO then I would think having her just have the freedom to come and go would be a tricky issue. Most people have to be invited and I assumed screened. Once the space gun was destroyed I would think the President would be against her just showing up.

One other thing is what does the world think about Superman in this world? He has been gone for awhile and are the people turning against him as well because of the Children of Liberty movement which seems to be a movement that has become global. Of course with this show I half expect them at some point do a scene were someone says "I'm not racist against aliens, I like Superman." sort of playing off on the racist cliche line of "I have black friends."

Jason

 

[Ovation]

There's definitely no STAR Labs.

Mind you, I believe the CRISIS will result in all of the worlds combining to make what amounts to the typical DCU.

Aliens, metas, and more.

I certainly hope not. That would be quite disappointing.

 

[Christopher]

But that is more about dealing with the aliens on the ground.

The point is, any work of adventure fiction is going to have danger coming from somewhere -- that's a function of the needs of storytelling. So no, it's not valid to say that aliens are fundamentally more dangerous than Earthlings, because if there were no aliens, then the danger would just come from home-grown sources like Lex Luthor or Cadmus or metahumans or whatever.

And referring to metahumans as "aliens on the ground" is offensive. They're human beings who had something happen to them through no fault of their own.

Chances are the space gun still might not work but it's better to have something in place than nothing.

That's nonsense. Again, even the most advanced "space gun" humans could create would probably be no threat at all to any genuinely belligerent alien force. It would mainly be a threat to humans and to harmless aliens. Look how easily the Elite hacked it and used it to target the White House.

Many people buy into the idea that having a gun in the house makes them safe from burglars. But statistically speaking, the vast majority of people shot by privately owned firearms are members of the family, friends, or neighbors rather than intruders. As long as the weapon is there, it's a constant threat to the people in the house with it. And that's far more likely to be people who belong there than people intruding from outside. Not to mention all the times that intruders have stolen people's guns to use against them, rather than the other way around. So no, having a huge freaking space gun in orbit would not make humans safer from aliens -- it would put them in ongoing danger from the huge freaking space gun.

This episode also made me think of something. How does Supergirl just show up to the White House and meet the President? I understand being okay with it as long as you feel they are on your side but once Supergirl quit the DEO then I would think having her just have the freedom to come and go would be a tricky issue. Most people have to be invited and I assumed screened. Once the space gun was destroyed I would think the President would be against her just showing up.

She has superspeed and superstrength. She could whoosh in before anyone had a chance to spot her.

 

[Charles Phipps]

I'm iffy.

This isn't Earth-0 (i.e. our Earth) and we know that the technology level on Earth-1 is higher than ours due to the presence of aliens (ironically) as well as super-geniuses like Lex Luthor. Lena Luthor was fully capable of building an interdimensional gateway that is high tech by the standards of the rest of the galaxy w/ Rhea's help out of local materials. So, yes, Earth could probably make a weapon capable of blowing up aliens ala Harriet Jones and Torchwood.

However, it's very likely such a weapon would just tick off someone genuinely dangerous and is more likely to be used against refugees.

 

[Christopher]

So, yes, Earth could probably make a weapon capable of blowing up aliens ala Harriet Jones and Torchwood.

Yeah, but don't you think President Baker looks tired...?

 

[TREK_GOD_1]

In real life, surely. In a comic-book universe, that's not necessarily the case. Heck, mad scientists and super-villains routinely launch death-ray satellites or build giant city-stomping robot dinosaurs without years of appropriations and R&D.

Even Silver Age Red Skull's Sleeper robots were not created overnight. Part of the dramatic appeal was that he (and associates) worked behind the scenes for some time, waiting for the day he could set it loose. Claymore should be the same kind of creation--something that was plotted for years, then waiting for that right moment to launch. Its easier to buy that way.

In a world where telepathic gorillas exist, and Brainy can throw together a pair of gloves to channel "dream energy," I can accept that the Evil President can authorize a top-secret super-weapon and get it launched in no time at all.

That's bad writing of convenience to push one idea again and again, instead of good world building that has technology like that used in the Claymore dating back to the foundation of the DEO. The fact the DEO exists at all meant the appearance, then threat of aliens was taken seriously for some time, so its only natural that the U.S. government would think they need a stronger level of defense, especially in the wake of all of the alien death-plots that have hit Earth since Supergirl's in-universe timeline began.

As Alex explained to Supergirl in "Blood Memory"--

""This world is filled with a lot of people that are bigger and stronger than her, and that kind of vulnerability...it makes you angry! When you feel powerless enough, you will do anything it takes...to feel strong."

As I mentioned in that review, Alex justified the positions of Lena and the Children of Liberty. Now you can add the U.S. government with Claymore and the superhuman development program.

 

[Guy Gardener]

There was a big alien killing cannon on top of the DEO building last year when Teri Hatcher attacked, which everyone seemed to think would have worked, although you'd think ships in space would be using far more powerful and toxic shields, than ships in an atmosphere where people are living do.

 

[Jayson1]

The point is, any work of adventure fiction is going to have danger coming from somewhere -- that's a function of the needs of storytelling. So no, it's not valid to say that aliens are fundamentally more dangerous than Earthlings, because if there were no aliens, then the danger would just come from home-grown sources like Lex Luthor or Cadmus or metahumans or whatever.

And referring to metahumans as "aliens on the ground" is offensive. They're human beings who had something happen to them through no fault of their own.




That's nonsense. Again, even the most advanced "space gun" humans could create would probably be no threat at all to any genuinely belligerent alien force. It would mainly be a threat to humans and to harmless aliens. Look how easily the Elite hacked it and used it to target the White House.

Many people buy into the idea that having a gun in the house makes them safe from burglars. But statistically speaking, the vast majority of people shot by privately owned firearms are members of the family, friends, or neighbors rather than intruders. As long as the weapon is there, it's a constant threat to the people in the house with it. And that's far more likely to be people who belong there than people intruding from outside. Not to mention all the times that intruders have stolen people's guns to use against them, rather than the other way around. So no, having a huge freaking space gun in orbit would not make humans safer from aliens -- it would put them in ongoing danger from the huge freaking space gun.




She has superspeed and superstrength. She could whoosh in before anyone had a chance to spot her.

I'm not saying the space gun doing what's suppose to do would be good in terms of fiction. The idea of a dangerous alien invasion being destroyed 5 minutes into a episode and going off like a hitch would of course be boring unless they were using it to set up some other story like the ship being destroyed makes these aliens want to come back and get revenge or a main character was aboard etc.

Ideally though from a in universe reason it's existence makes sense even if there was some dubious things that went into it's creation and made complicated by the fact that a single nation basically just weaponized space without telling the rest of the world. For something like that to be created you would need some kind of world wide support to get it done without possibly causing a world war.

One of the main issues though is earth will never know just how many alien threats are out their and some of them you would think would be so alien as their motivations would be beyond human understanding. I guess it does depend though on just how informed earth is when it comes to aliens. How much has Superman and Supergirl told the governments over the years I wonder?

It doesn't help that there seems to have been a shift in tone with aliens on the show. In season 1 aliens still felt like regular aliens but all of sudden in season 2 they are shown to be part of everyday society. It seems like sometimes they want aliens to be just aliens but then sometimes they want them to be social metaphors. So on one hand you still have aliens who you got to assume can't be reasoned with but then you got others who are basically like humans with human motivations. It's the more alien style aliens of the shows universe that I think would be why you want a weapons like the space gun for defense. You never know if your going to be getting refuges or some "Independence Day" style attack if you don't know what is going on out in space.


Jason

 

[Christopher]

Ideally though from a in universe reason it's existence makes sense

I still reject that premise. A sword is not a shield. Packing a gun does not make you safer. It just makes other people more likely to see you as a threat and attack you. And it puts you and the people around you in danger from the gun, through accident or bad judgment.

And even if there are valid arguments for a planetary defense system, this was absolutely not the way to do it -- unilaterally, secretly, and extralegally.

One of the main issues though is earth will never know just how many alien threats are out their

Thinking that way is paranoid and self-defeating. If you default to the assumption that the unknown is a threat, then that just makes you the aggressor, the one starting fights that could've been avoided. There are friends out there as well as enemies, but if you let your entire interaction with others be dominated by fear, you'll shut down the possibility of making friends. Fear should never be the sole thing shaping your choices. Heck, that's what this whole season -- even the whole series -- is about from a thematic standpoint.

It seems like sometimes they want aliens to be just aliens but then sometimes they want them to be social metaphors.

Aliens in fiction are always metaphors. We have no knowledge of what real aliens are like, so the ones portrayed in fiction are always symbolic of some aspect of humanity.

 

[Jayson1]

I still reject that premise. A sword is not a shield. Packing a gun does not make you safer. It just makes other people more likely to see you as a threat and attack you. And it puts you and the people around you in danger from the gun, through accident or bad judgment.

And even if there are valid arguments for a planetary defense system, this was absolutely not the way to do it -- unilaterally, secretly, and extralegally.




Thinking that way is paranoid and self-defeating. If you default to the assumption that the unknown is a threat, then that just makes you the aggressor, the one starting fights that could've been avoided. There are friends out there as well as enemies, but if you let your entire interaction with others be dominated by fear, you'll shut down the possibility of making friends. Fear should never be the sole thing shaping your choices. Heck, that's what this whole season -- even the whole series -- is about from a thematic standpoint.




Aliens in fiction are always metaphors. We have no knowledge of what real aliens are like, so the ones portrayed in fiction are always symbolic of some aspect of humanity.

I don't know. We do need weapons for self defense. We have tanks and soliders and airplanes. The space gun would be just a extension of that. While I agree that before you just starting shooting at things you do try and make peaceful contact with any ships coming to earth but the fact that one might need to use it as a last resort makes sense to me. Especially in the case when dealing with a threat that can literally wipe out the entire human race.

A advanced alien spaceship and race is a pretty tough foe to have to fight with just modern tech and maybe even slightly advanced tech they might have. How much more advanced this world is as opposed to ours is unclear. The fact that humans don't have space travel ability tells me that Supergirl's world is still closer to ours than something more advanced. Also I still don't know what humans would suppose to do if Superman and Supergirl were both killed. I mean this is fiction so I am sure the writers could come up with something but if that world was reality and Superman and Supergirl were real and they died I think humans could be in lots of trouble by just relaying on two people to defended itself from a possible alien invasion.

Maybe giving humans superpower which is what they seem to be going for but then again giving that power to the government seems to come up with some of the same issues that a space gun yet just alllowing regular people to get superpowers without regulation also feels like giving people free guns without background checks and also more dangerous because a person with superpowers depending on that power is even more dangerous than someone with a pistol or machine gun. Plus you still run into the problem in that the government doesn't need to own the tech. They can just recruit people with powers through the promise of money or patriotism or who knows what to work for them thus your back to the same problem of governments having control over super powered people.

Jason

 

[Charles Phipps]

I don't know. We do need weapons for self defense. We have tanks and soliders and airplanes. The space gun would be just a extension of that. While I agree that before you just starting shooting at things you do try and make peaceful contact with any ships coming to earth but the fact that one might need to use it as a last resort makes sense to me. Especially in the case when dealing with a threat that can literally wipe out the entire human race.

Mind you, the show doesn't always 100% agree with Kara. We saw it whenever the issue of Kryptonite comes up that Kara is 100% wrong because Kryptonians have been villains in 2/4 seasons and that's not including when Superman almost killed her while under Rhea's mind-control. The big difference here is the President seems to have constructed a death ray without the knowledge of the US military.

I think giving humans superpowers is perfectly reasonable, though. I mean, literally, Supergirl KNOWS the Flash.

Any objection she has would apply to him.

 

[Finn]

To be fair, Barry was originally made a meta by accident- Thawne only made it happen sooner.

 

[Charles Phipps]

To be fair, Barry was originally made a meta by accident- Thawne only made it happen sooner.

Yes and there's also 40 supervillains for every hero. However, the idea humans shouldn't have superpowers is dumb.

 

[CorporalCaptain]

Giving people superpowers is pretty stupid, and I predict it will have drastically negative consequences.

 

[Jayson1]

Mind you, the show doesn't always 100% agree with Kara. We saw it whenever the issue of Kryptonite comes up that Kara is 100% wrong because Kryptonians have been villains in 2/4 seasons and that's not including when Superman almost killed her while under Rhea's mind-control. The big difference here is the President seems to have constructed a death ray without the knowledge of the US military.

I think giving humans superpowers is perfectly reasonable, though. I mean, literally, Supergirl KNOWS the Flash.

Any objection she has would apply to him.

I agree the President was out of line in how it was made more than that something like it was made. I do think though it's not really Supergirls right to just destroy it because she doesn't like it. That is something that has to be up to Congress and the voters and I am also guessing the legal system. All it does is make her look like she feels she is above the law and if your person living on earth that's got to be scary because if Supergirl ever goes bad just like if Superman goes bad then who can stop them.

I do think this might be why the President could be controlled or even be Lex. The goal is to turn the public against Supergirl by appealing to people's fears of aliens that is already running deep because of the Children of Liberty to turn on even the one they consider to be a good alien. Kara destroying the weapon then is a mistake because she took the bait and played right into his hands.

Jason

 

[Christopher]

I think the destruction of the satellite was clearly meant to be a moral compromise on Supergirl's part. That was pretty much the theme of the whole episode -- can you stay true to a pure principle or are there times when you need to bend it? We saw that also with J'onn abandoning his vow of pacifism and fighting Manchester.

And as I said, that's what bugged me about the episode. Its title is taken from a comics story that's all about Superman rejecting the idea of moral compromise and showing that his principles are still valid. So having it climax with Supergirl and J'onn doing pretty much the opposite of standing by their pure principles seems incongruous and inappropriate. It's taking the title of the story but arriving at almost the opposite conclusion. (Only "almost" because neither Supergirl nor J'onn crosses the line into killing, which was the crux of the Superman/Manchester ideological dispute in the comic.)

Still, I can't really agree that what Supergirl did was unjustified. Yes, the immediate threat to the White House was ended, but if the weapon could be compromised that easily once, then it was an ongoing danger to humanity as well as to aliens. Heck, for all she knew, the Elite might've programmed it to keep trying to take out the White House, rather than just firing once. Destroying it was the only way to be sure the threat to everyone was ended. So legal or not, I think her decision was the right one under the circumstances. And so what she said to Baker -- that she concluded it was necessary -- was not exactly a lie, though it was dissembling.