Spoilers Does "Light and Shadows" contradict "Journey to Babel"?

[fireproof78]

So from where I'm sitting, I don't really see a contradiction. And if some insist there is, fine. It doesn't really matter. The question is are you enjoying the show and characters? If so, let the small stuff slide.

I think this is an excellent question. That's why the question of reboot is one of concern to me. I'm not going to try to imagine different pieces while watching the show. Kind of defeats the purpose of being invested in the narrative.

And fictional narratives are how we express our ideas and beliefs, and thus they evolve with us -- as long as we don't make the category error of assuming their "facts" are as immutable as real-life facts.

Exactly. One need only study Greek mythology and how the Greeks interpreted those stories to see how a culture reimagines facets of their stories.

Of course alot of that wouldn't fly today, but looking at it with 2019 Rose colored glasses is stupid.

Unfortunately, I don't think we can escape the retroactive assessment by 2019 standards.

 

[Nyotarules]

Treat TOS Pike like TOS Klingons in TMP,
1. Klingons never had smooth foreheads
2. Pike never made that statement
3 Scotty was never a misogynist
4. Female Lieutenants or ex wives were never called 'the girl'
5. Captains did not go around threatening to spank heads of states
6. Bones never racially insulted a colleague at his place of work...(er no forget this one)

 

[XCV330]

Treat TOS Pike like TOS Klingons in TMP,
1. Klingons never had smooth foreheads
2. Pike never made that statement
3 Scotty was never a misogynist
4. Female Lieutenants or ex wives were never called 'the girl'
5. Captains did not go around threatening to spank heads of states
6. Bones never racially insulted a colleague at his place of work...(er no forget this one)

Kirk at least took time to explain to Charlie that spanking women was probably not ok, unlike spanking men, before taking him for a confused series of throws and humiliating laughs in Enterprise's never-to-be-seen-again dojo.

 

[Yistaan]

This whole contradiction about Spock and Sarek meeting while they are estranged reminds me how over at Star Wars, Grievous and Anakin act like they never met in Revenge of the Sith, yet a Clone Wars episode shows them right next to each other during a prisoner exchange (admittedly Anakin was unconscious at the time, but Grievous wasn't).

Anakin: "My powers have doubled since the last time we met Count!"
Dooku: "Good, twice the pride double the fall"

Entire effect of this exchange is lost when the Clone Wars cartoon shows Anakin and Dooku fighting every other week.

Obi-Wan: This time we'll take him together.
Anakin: I was just about to say that.

Season 6 of the Clone Wars shows that the last time Anakin, Obi-Wan and Dooku met, they already fought him together.

 

[Tuskin38]

This whole contradiction about Spock and Sarek meeting while they are estranged reminds me how over at Star Wars, Grievous and Anakin act like they never met in Revenge of the Sith, yet a Clone Wars episode shows them right next to each other during a prisoner exchange (admittedly Anakin was unconscious at the time, but Grievous wasn't).

Anakin: "My powers have doubled since the last time we met Count!"
Dooku: "Good, twice the pride double the fall"

Entire effect of this exchange is lost when the Clone Wars cartoon shows Anakin and Dooku fighting every other week.

The reason they had Anakin unconscious was because of that line in ROTS.

And I don't see any issue with the Dooku line.

 

[Yistaan]

The reason they had Anakin unconscious was because of that line in ROTS.

Grievous still said Anakin was younger than he expected, a bit jarring if Grievous had already seen Anakin before.

Also, a bit strange that Palpatine hypes up Anakin as the man to take down Grievous in ROTS, yet no one mentions the reason Grievous is free at all is because Anakin was captured.

 

[fireproof78]

This whole contradiction about Spock and Sarek meeting while they are estranged reminds me how over at Star Wars, Grievous and Anakin act like they never met in Revenge of the Sith, yet a Clone Wars episode shows them right next to each other during a prisoner exchange (admittedly Anakin was unconscious at the time, but Grievous wasn't).

Anakin: "My powers have doubled since the last time we met Count!"
Dooku: "Good, twice the pride double the fall"

Entire effect of this exchange is lost when the Clone Wars cartoon shows Anakin and Dooku fighting every other week.

Obi-Wan: This time we'll take him together.
Anakin: I was just about to say that.

Season 6 of the Clone Wars shows that the last time Anakin, Obi-Wan and Dooku met, they already fought him together.

Yeah, Clone Wars did that a bit more than they meant to, I think.

 

[Christopher]

Yeah, Clone Wars did that a bit more than they meant to, I think.

The priority of any story is what works best for the story itself. Consistency with other stories is nice if you can get it, but it's a less important consideration. At least when it's on the detail level of single lines that only a few viewers would ever notice.

 

[Yistaan]

The priority of any story is what works best for the story itself. Consistency with other stories is nice if you can get it, but it's a less important consideration. At least when it's on the detail level of single lines that only a few viewers would ever notice.

I know Doctor Who writers have been trying to abolish the 13 lives limit for Time Lords by saying that it was just a throwaway line everyone should forget.

The problem was that throwaway line became the whole reason for the Master's motivation starting with the 4th Doctor, so it wasn't so easily swept under the rug (the Master was on his last life and wanted more). That motivation lasted even till the 1996 TV movie, at which point after that it was all retconned into the Master hearing drumming in his head, and then after he was cured of that they killed off the character until the next inevitable showrunner resurrection.

 

[Hythlodeus]

and then after he was cured of that he turned into Missy and was used for 3 more years until they killed off the character until the next inevitable showrunner resurrection.

ftfy

 

[Yistaan]

ftfy

Yeah, thanks for adding Missy back in. My memory fritzed and I thought Missy was still suffering from the drumming, but she wasn't. They didn't actually make that clear until her death episode to be fair.

 

[Christopher]

I know Doctor Who writers have been trying to abolish the 13 lives limit for Time Lords by saying that it was just a throwaway line everyone should forget.

No... They honored the existence of that limitation but found a way around it when the time came. The Doctor reached the end of his 13th life and expected to die, but through extraordinary means was granted a new cycle of lives.

The problem was that throwaway line became the whole reason for the Master's motivation starting with the 4th Doctor, so it wasn't so easily swept under the rug (the Master was on his last life and wanted more).

And the 13-life limit wasn't even introduced until "The Deadly Assassin." It was a retcon to begin with. The portrayal of regeneration changed frequently. The first time it happened, it was "renewal" and was "part of the TARDIS." The second time, it was "changing appearance" and could be imposed by the Time Lords (who were only introduced for the first time in that story). The third time, it became a natural process of cellular regeneration. Several years later, it was established that it could only happen 12 times and that no force in the universe could add more lives. Several years after that, the Time Lords were casually offering the Master a new cycle of lives. And so on. If you want to talk about consistent continuity, Doctor Who has never been a good example.

 

[Hythlodeus]

Yeah, thanks for adding Missy back in. My memory fritzed and I thought Missy was still suffering from the drumming, but she wasn't. They didn't actually make that clear until her death episode to be fair.

the drums were a huge musical motiv with Simm's Master, that wasn't used for Missy. I thought that was a givaway

 

[Hythlodeus]

No... They honored the existence of that limitation but found a way around it when the time came. The Doctor reached the end of his 13th life and expected to die, but through extraordinary means was granted a new cycle of lives.

You're both right. There was talk, way before the reboot about how the 13 regenerations was sad mistake* (and iirc also during the RTD and Moffat era) by the writers and yes in the end, they found a way around it that worked canonical.

*as in 'we shouldn't have done it', not as in 'that actually never happened'

 

[Yistaan]

the drums were a huge musical motiv with Simm's Master, that wasn't used for Missy. I thought that was a givaway

Dude, I made a mistake ok. I don't follow Who as closely as Star Trek or Star Wars. It's a bit maddening that your edit seems, maybe not intentionally, as acting as if I purposely omitted the sole female Master when in fact I didn't even mention any of the 6 pre-Missy Masters by name. If we are going to be nitpicky one could come after me for omitting any mention of Derek Jacobi's Master if one wanted.

 

[Hythlodeus]

Dude, I made a mistake ok. I don't follow Who as closely as Star Trek or Star Wars. It's a bit maddening that the edit seems, maybe not intentionally, as acting as if I purposely omitted the sole female Master when in fact I didn't even mention any of the 6 pre-Missy Masters by name. If we are going to be nitpicky one could come after me for omitting any mention of Derek Jacobi's Master if one wanted.

sorry if you felt I was critizicing you, that wasn't my intention at all. I'm just a nitpicker in that regard and can't help it

 

[Noname Given]

Treat TOS Pike like TOS Klingons in TMP,

5. Captains did not go around threatening to spank heads of states

^^^
If it's what I think you're referring to - IMO there's nothing wrong with that as (and it's from TOS S3 - "Elann of Troyius") Kirk was just trying to point out she was acting like a child and not a World Ruler. Plus I don't believe he ever actually spanked her (at least on screen, and off screen after he was infected with her tear; I'm sure it was consensual on her part if actually done. )

 

[Christopher]

^Well, there is something wrong with it, since spanking children has now come to be recognized as a form of child abuse, and studies have shown that it does lasting harm. It's yet another thing that dates TOS as a product of half a century ago.

 

[Nyotarules]

^^^
If it's what I think you're referring to - IMO there's nothing wrong with that as (and it's from TOS S3 - "Elann of Troyius") Kirk was just trying to point out she was acting like a child and not a World Ruler. Plus I don't believe he ever actually spanked her (at least on screen, and off screen after he was infected with her tear; I'm sure it was consensual on her part if actually done. )

This is too close to the excuse abusive men use to hit women, the 'she needs discipline' crap. It was a product of its time, infantilising adult women. It has no place in Discovery Star trek so best to put in the never happened zone.

 

[Succubint]

I think they were basically trying to give a homage to the Taming of the Shrew. Not that that excuses it, since that play isn't too popular nowadays for obvious reasons.