Spoilers Discovery and the Novelverse - TV show discussion thread

[Yistaan]

Probably. Look at all the times Worf killed someone under circumstances that were perfectly legal under Klingon law and all Picard or Sisko could do was yell at him and write him up for insubordination, at most.

Kirk agreed to take part in a Vulcan wedding, Kirk was warned that the proceedings would take place under Vulcan law, and he still agreed, even after Spock told him he was ignorant of critical information. Sure, no one told him flat out that the fight was to the death, but Spock begging T'Pau to forbid it should've suggested it was going to be more than a little friendly tussling like he assumed. Kirk would've been killed though his own negligence.

If that's the case then it's clear standards go a long way down in the 23rd century. Even here in the 21st century people are rightfully holding heads of state accountable for deaths under their watch. Not going to cite specifics but you need look no further than recent news.

My take is different and I think if Kirk had actually died, while T'Pau might avoid prison time the Federation Council would vote to expel Vulcan from the Federation unless compensation was made to Kirk's family (in whatever form that takes in a possibly moneyless society) and new Vulcan laws put in place to ensure such a thing never happens again.

T'Pau may look down on the Federation Council to refuse a seat on it, but her planet still ultimately must answer to them if they want to stay Federation members.

 

[David cgc]

But what law was broken? Kirk was on Vulcan, taking part in a Vulcan civil process, and repeatedly and explicitly agreed, at his own risk, to be subject to Vulcan law, which says you can kill someone for trying to interrupt your wedding (or for trying to marry someone you want to marry).

To use a less fraught comparison, should the US break off diplomatic ties with the Netherlands because Americans smoke pot there, even though it's illegal at home?

Heck, Curzon Dax was killed participating in a similar local custom on Risa, should they have been penalized for not treating him like a child who couldn't be held responsible for his own safety? Or what if it was the reverse? A Vulcan dies doing something legal but hazardous on Earth, with the Prime Minister standing at his shoulder repeatedly telling him though he can swim with the sharks, he probably shouldn't, and certainly doesn't have to if he doesn't want to.

 

[Yistaan]

But what law was broken? Kirk was on Vulcan, taking part in a Vulcan civil process, and repeatedly and explicitly agreed, at his own risk, to be subject to Vulcan law, which says you can kill someone for trying to interrupt your wedding (or for trying to marry someone you want to marry).

To use a less fraught comparison, should the US break off diplomatic ties with the Netherlands because Americans smoke pot there, even though it's illegal at home?

Heck, Curzon Dax was killed participating in a similar local custom on Risa, should they have been penalized for not treating him like a child who couldn't be held responsible for his own safety? Or what if it was the reverse? A Vulcan dies doing something legal but hazardous on Earth, with the Prime Minister standing at his shoulder repeatedly telling him though he can swim with the sharks, he probably shouldn't, and certainly doesn't have to if he doesn't want to.

I could cite the recent case in the news last week, but not sure if I'm allowed to bring it up by name in a Star Trek forum. Suffice to say, if someone is killed and the country responsible didn't provide all relevant information, that country is generally ostracized by the global community regardless if laws "technically" were not broken.

 

[Christopher]

As far as Vulcan escorts, I suppose it's possible but I'm not sure if Vulcan government/society allows such services to exist.

Why wouldn't they? It's illogical to stigmatize sex work, especially in a species where sexual activity at least once every seven years is literally required to stay alive.

T'Pau seems to be a pretty ruthless advocate of the traditional ways

Sure, but it's impossible that every single Vulcan adult on the planet is bonded. If nothing else, there would be widows and widowers. Sarek's first wife died an unknown number of years before he met Amanda. So having an option available for unbonded Vulcans is not in the least incompatible with the traditions that exist for bonded ones.

 

[David cgc]

I understand what you're talking about, but I don't understand why you think it's applicable. Kirk didn't get sentenced to death for walking on the grass (you know, like that would happen), he all but signed a release authorizing him to kill Spock, or, failing that, be killed by him. What if Kirk won? Then whose government would you be tearing down? That's always fun in court, when your defense is, "Sure, I agreed to a contract, but that doesn't mean I knew what was in it."

 

[Yistaan]

That's always fun in court, when your defense is, "Sure, I agreed to a contract, but that doesn't mean I knew what was in it."

Even that can be bent if the contract signer has enough power. If you follow the Witcher, see Andrzej Sapkowski vs CDProjekt Red. Mr. Sapkowski signed away a ton of money on the Witcher games based on his books because he thought the games would fail.

He ended up complaining anyway and even though the law is on CDProjekt Red's side, he was provided with a settlement after the fact. That's because CDProjekt Red didn't want the awful publicity of the man responsible for Geralt making their life as miserable as possible.

The Federation has a lot of power. The Federation Council can vote out Vulcan, and T'Pau can protest that Kirk died "legally". The Federation can say, "That's nice, have a nice day, hope the Romulans don't attack now you no longer have Federation protection."

The Federation is a democracy. And as we see in the news recently, democracy has a weak point. If enough people can be swayed to see a certain point of view, those same people will rewrite laws to fit that view given enough votes. Brexit for example.

In this case, enough people with voting power could well be outraged enough by Kirk's death to make any pre-existing agreements/laws/treaties etc. with Vulcan void. We already know per T'Pring's words that Spock (and presumably Kirk) were legendary by the time of Amok Time.

And a lot of those people are going to care about the intricate details of Vulcan law as much as millions of people with voting power here on Earth care about the technicalities of Earth law. Basically not much at all--they'll see the end result of a brave Starfleet captain dead and an arrogant Vulcan matriarch who could have provided all the info on what he was getting into but didn't.

Think treaties/laws hold water if enough people don't care anymore? Look up the Budapest Memorandum, if you aren't already familiar with it.

 

[TheAlmanac]

We evidently got a FASA RPG reference in this latest episode:

2257, the coordinates of Talos IV were noted as 749 Mark 148. (DIS: "Light and Shadows")

FASA RPG book The Federation on page 31, where they are instead arranged as 7.49S 1.48E, placing the star group 74.9 parsecs to the south and 14.8 to the east of the center of Federation space.

https://memory-alpha.fandom.com/wiki/Talos_IV

It's really interesting that when Discovery has chosen to incorporate (as opposed to contradict) tie-ins lately, the series has leaned heavily towards old-school sources: The Final Reflection, the Star Fleet Technical Manual, and now FASA. I wonder what inspires this particular preference when newer TOS tie-ins could (also) be referenced the same way.

 

[Yistaan]

It's really interesting that when Discovery has chosen to incorporate (as opposed to contradict) tie-ins lately, the series has leaned heavily towards old-school sources: The Final Reflection, the Star Fleet Technical Manual, and now FASA. I wonder what inspires this particular preference when newer TOS tie-ins could (also) be referenced the same way.

I think these shout outs are red herrings so that the more drastic deviations from tie-in works will be overlooked. Basically, "Yeah we aged Pike by 17 years so that he can have a hip line about drinking with Georgiou at the Academy, but, uh--Hey look! FASA coordinates!"

 

[Greg Cox]

We've seen at least 3 examples in canon of Vulcans handling Pon Farr the "right" way ending disastrously--T'Pol and Koss, Spock and T'Pring, and Sarek and Sybok's mother. The aftereffects of these disasters are felt for years to come in Vulcans who have no choice but to suppress how they really feel..

Although, to be fair, we don't actually know that Sybok's conception involved pon farr. As I recall, Star Trek V said next to nothing about Sarek's relationship with Sybok's mother--and that's only the "canonical" source of information on the subject.

We can speculate freely on the topic, but until something is stated onscreen, it's just speculation.

 

[Yistaan]

Although, to be fair, we don't actually know that Sybok's conception involved pon farr. As I recall, Star Trek V said next to nothing about Sarek's relationship with Sybok's mother--and that's only the "canonical" source of information on the subject.

We can speculate freely on the topic, but until something is stated onscreen, it's just speculation.

Hmm. Regardless betrothing children not old enough to make a decision on who to spend the rest of their lives with is not logical. We're given the impression that this sort of thing is logical to Vulcans but not to humans because they're outsiders or whatever.

However, this would require the Vulcan definition of logic to be drastically different than the human one. After 50 years and countless exposure to Vulcans including Tuvok, T'Pol, Sarek etc. we see that Vulcan logic is more or less the same as human logic really. Vulcans just choose to act on it all the time whereas humans don't.

As such, and especially after extensive contact with humans, I would imagine there would be a growing number of Vulcans who will outright say that the 'Amok Time' way of handling Pon Farr and hormones is not logical and start looking into alternatives that don't needless damage the lives of future Vulcan young people via life changing betrothals made for them in adulthood.

 

[David cgc]

Much like the Vulcans, you're throwing around the word "logic" without really defining it. There's the casual usage, where it means something like "reasonable" or "rational," but also "formal logic," which is just a system for determining the validity of conclusions based on foundational statements, and anything can be formally logical depending on where you start from (a method for being wrong authoritatively, as the Doctor once said). The Vulcans could well consider it illogical to abandon a practice that has served them well through thousands of years of civilization, just like humans consider it illogical to rip out all their eyeballs and give everyone VISORs, as Data once suggested.

Sure, maybe we'd all be happier if Vulcans didn't have carefully prearranged marriages, and hooked up in hasty, unplanned pairings whenever their seven-year-itch first goes off and drives them mad with lust, and maybe we'd all be happier if we could see into the deep ultraviolet better than a tricorder, but there are drawbacks, too.

 

[Yistaan]

Sure, maybe we'd all be happier if Vulcans didn't have carefully prearranged marriages, and hooked up in hasty, unplanned pairings whenever their seven-year-itch first goes off and drives them mad with lust, and maybe we'd all be happier if we could see into the deep ultraviolet better than a tricorder, but there are drawbacks, too.

If Spock financially compensated an Orion escort (as long as she's doing it willingly and is not a slave, trafficked) every Pon Farr, then he can go his own way and she goes on her own at the end of the Pon Farr. No one is harmed and there are no permanent effects, and I'm sure Orions use birth control and a tricorder can quickly scan for diseases.

The Orions can even frame this as a compassionate, life saving organization that helps Vulcans without forcing them into illogical marriages with strangers.

 

[Greg Cox]

Well, my impression is that the whole "battle to the death" thing is hardly a standard feature of Vulcan weddings; T'Pring surprised everyone by invoking a venerable but rarely-practiced tradition.

Kinda like the bit in real-life wedding ceremonies where the officiant asks if anyone present has any objections to the union. Nine times out of ten, if that, it's just a formality; nobody really expects anyone to stand up and raise an objection. (Lord knows I've been to my fair share of weddings over the last fifty-plus years or so, and I have never seen anyone object during the ceremony.)

Most Vulcans probably go their entire lives without ever seeing a wedding turn into a gladiatorial combat.

The thing is: the Vulcans are all about "logic" but they're also all about tradition. Is this contradictory? Of course. But most cultures have their own built-in contradictions and hypocrisies.

 

[Yistaan]

Well, my impression is that the whole "battle to the death" thing is hardly a standard feature of Vulcan weddings; T'Pring surprised everyone by invoking a venerable but rarely-practiced tradition.

Kinda like the bit in real-life wedding ceremonies where the officiant asks if anyone present has any objections to the union. Nine times out of ten, if that, it's just a formality; nobody really expects anyone to stand up and raise an objection. (Lord knows I've been to my fair share of weddings over the last fifty-plus years or so, and I have never seen anyone object during the ceremony.)

Most Vulcans probably go their entire lives without ever seeing a wedding turn into a gladiatorial combat.

To be fair my views likely come from my atheist standpoint, which sees abstinence before marriage, as used by religion, as a well-intentioned but hamfisted attempt to ensure all children are born into an actual family. While this was necessary before modern birth control, I feel what it's creating now is a society of people who end up marrying just to deal with hormones.

The idea is that if people abstain before marriage, a deity will magically make circumstances just so converge so that you just happen to find the person most suited to your personality in your immediate physical presence to marry. In a world of over 7 billion people, that's just pseudoscience taken to an absurd degree in my opinion.

So, yeah, I guess I'm not happy with the logical Vulcans embracing what I feel is illogical here in our real world. Don't mean to offend anyone here, it's just how I see things. It's ok if you disagree.

 

[Greg Cox]

No offense taken. I'm an atheist too. But when it comes to STAR TREK (and other franchises), I'm reluctant to impose my own expectations or theories about how, say, the Vulcans ought to be versus the way they've actually been portrayed in the actual shows and movies.

Canon versus fanon, as it were.

 

[Yistaan]

No offense taken. I'm an atheist too. But when it comes to STAR TREK (and other franchises), I'm reluctant to impose my own expectations or theories about how, say, the Vulcans ought to be versus the way they've actually been portrayed in the actual shows and movies.

Canon versus fanon, as it were.

To be fair, there are a lot of Vulcans, and we've mainly seen T'Pau, Spock's family, T'Pol, and Tuvok who all were from traditional families. We actually have no idea how a lot of Vulcans actually are.

I feel it's like assuming someone like Harry Mudd can't exist in the human race after we've only seen Kirk, Picard, Sisko, Janeway. But we know he very much does exist.

 

[Christopher]

It's really interesting that when Discovery has chosen to incorporate (as opposed to contradict) tie-ins lately, the series has leaned heavily towards old-school sources: The Final Reflection, the Star Fleet Technical Manual, and now FASA. I wonder what inspires this particular preference when newer TOS tie-ins could (also) be referenced the same way.

The thing is, people who work in TV are very busy working in TV and don't necessarily have time to read tie-in novels. So they're more likely to be aware of the tie-ins from their younger days when they weren't yet too busy working in TV to read this stuff.

Also, there are just so many Trek tie-ins by now that not everyone has the same entry points. There are probably a lot of people out there who read the comics or play the games but know nothing of the novels. The older stuff comes from a time when there was less competition for the fans' attention, so a given work has a higher probability of being known.

Hmm. Regardless betrothing children not old enough to make a decision on who to spend the rest of their lives with is not logical.

That depends on how you define the purpose of marriage. Keep in mind that the modern idea of marrying for love is historically a rather recent one, and still not globally accepted. For most of history and in most cultures, the primary functions of marriage have been reproductive, financial, and political -- a way to establish alliances between families, secure social status or economic advancement, and ensure the existence of heirs to whom people can pass down their property, trade, or social status. That's why arranging marriages in childhood has been a common practice in many human societies over the ages. And it's reasonable that the pragmatic, unemotional Vulcans would define marriage in the same terms, as an institution serving a practical socioeconomic function, with considerations of love or affinity being utterly beside the point.

 

[David cgc]

The Orions can even frame this as a compassionate, life saving organization that helps Vulcans without forcing them into illogical marriages with strangers.

Hardly strangers, they would've been living rent-free in each others' heads for years before the actual marriage. Spock going off-world and not keeping in touch with his betrothed probably wasn't typical. Indeed, Spock implied his Pon Farr came late, and straight-up said that he'd hoped that since he was half-human, it wouldn't happen at all. Who knows if ever Spock told T'Pring that, and that influenced her looking for companionship elsewhere.

 

[Yistaan]

Hardly strangers, they would've been living rent-free in each others' heads for years before the actual marriage.

While technically possible, that's not the impression I got actually happened from Koss and T'Pol.

 

[The Wormhole]

We already know per T'Pring's words that Spock (and presumably Kirk) were legendary by the time of Amok Time.

Spock was legendary among Vulcans because he was from a well-known family. Kirk wasn't legendary at this point in time.

Kinda like the bit in real-life wedding ceremonies where the officiant asks if anyone present has any objections to the union. Nine times out of ten, if that, it's just a formality; nobody really expects anyone to stand up and raise an objection. (Lord knows I've been to my fair share of weddings over the last fifty-plus years or so, and I have never seen anyone object during the ceremony.)

I remember when my cousin got married, her and her husband requested that question not be asked because they were that worried there would be objections.

They've been married nineteen years now and were together at least four years prior to getting married, so if there were people at the wedding who objected, those objections have proven baseless.