when did TOS take place, 23rd century or 22nd century

[cooleddie74]

Wasn't there a novel that explained the existence of Miri's Planet as being an actual quantum duplicate of Earth created by a spatial phenonenon at some point in the past and that her "Earth" was for all intents and purposes an alternate Earth deposited in a distant sector of space and one that evolved along its own social and technological paths by that Earth's 1960s?

If so we could think of Miri's Planet in much the same way as the Harry Kim created by the spatial scission in "Deadlock(VOY)," who was technically Harry Kim but also not. That would make Miri and the other Onlies human beings and not extraterrestrial humanoids and once Kirk's logs on the planet were received by Starfleet Command that could help explain why they dispatched specialists to aid Miri, Jahn and the others on developing their society along a new path now that they had the cure for the disease.

 

[Damian]

Wasn't there a novel that explained the existence of Miri's Planet as being an actual quantum duplicate of Earth created by a spatial phenonenon at some point in the past and that her "Earth" was for all intents and purposes an alternate Earth deposited in a distant sector of space and one that evolved along its own social and technological paths by that Earth's 1960s?

If so we could think of Miri's Planet in much the same way as the Harry Kim created by the spatial scission in "Deadlock(VOY)," who was technically Harry Kim but also not. That would make Miri and the other Onlies human beings and not extraterrestrial humanoids and once Kirk's logs on the planet were received by Starfleet Command that could help explain why they dispatched specialists to aid Miri, Jahn and the others on developing their society along a new path now that they had the cure for the disease.

One of the DTI novels by Christopher Bennett gives that reason, that it really was "Earth" from another reality that got switched with another planet from our reality. It's probably a far better explanation than another Earth being created exactly like ours in our galaxy, something that is probably close to impossible.

 

[Timo]

Then again, the impossible is but the norm for our heroes. Just as in "Miri", where the impossibility of the duplicate Earth is first pointed out and then dismissed as irrelevant.

Specifically, the creation of impossible planets is a phenomenon our TOS heroes encounter twice after "Miri". In "Paradise Syndrome", a planet has all the wrong specs for one of the relative age, size and composition; it turns out the likely explanation is that the Preservers terraformed it, but apparently better than yer standard stock of terraformers. In "That Which Survives", a lanet has the wrong mass and atmosphere for its size, and is astronomically improbable; it turns out the Kalandans built the whole thing.

Creating another exact Earth doesn't appear particularly unlikely, then, even if it's near-impossible. We aren't missing the means, only the motivation. And TOS already is full of creatures motivated to toy with human existence, to play games for pleasure, to create experiments for knowledge. Build the planet, conjure up the Lincolns and Earps and Platos and, if need be, the Apollos and Quetzalcoalts, and voilà.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Damian]

The location in space alone is enough to differentiate the planet from Earth, by the way.

None of this detracts from the episode still qualifying as a data point. The reasons why it's good don't exist on the textual level, but they do exist on the metatextual level.

I think the writers of the episode were trying to tell us that Miri's Earth was exactly like ours in every way though. They even noted it was the 3rd planet from it's sun. I think they wanted us to believe it was like our Earth in every way, as impossible as that may sound. It's one reason I think the timeline's match also. I actually believe the intent was that Miri's Earth had the same 24 hour days and 365 days a year that our Earth has, making 300 years the same on Miri's Earth as our Earth.

It's true there was no plague on our Earth. But as we learned from "Mirror, Mirror" alternate versions of ourselves can be created that our completely different from us. Mirror Kirk is nothing like Prime-Kirk. Even genetic copies can be completely different as we saw with Captain Picard and Schinzon. They have the same genes but because of their different upbringing they become completely different people, unrecognizable to the other. The same thing could have happened on Miri's Earth. Some scientist or scientists could have just happened on a surprise discover or experiment that led them to create the life prolongation project (or conversely maybe there was a similar project on our own Earth that was abandoned because they found something dangerous or it didn't work...or any number of reasons it never happened here).

But I do agree, taken by itself, "Miri" is not definitive. If that was all there was I'd be hesitant to conclude Star Trek was in the 23rd century. It's just when taken together with everything else we've learned since, it's as you note, one data point of many we have now that tells you Star Trek is in the mid-late 23rd century.

 

[Damian]

Creating another exact Earth doesn't appear particularly unlikely, then, even if it's near-impossible. We aren't missing the means, only the motivation.

I do like Christopher's explanation in his DTI book though, that it was a planet switched from a parallel universe. A little variety in how all these Earth-type planets appear is always welcome . Some were created, some not well, others were switched from alternate universes, some maybe evolved by pure luck. Why not?

 

[Marsden]

I think the writers of the episode were trying to tell us that Miri's Earth was exactly like ours in every way though. They even noted it was the 3rd planet from it's sun. I think they wanted us to believe it was like our Earth in every way, as impossible as that may sound. It's one reason I think the timeline's match also. I actually believe the intent was that Miri's Earth had the same 24 hour days and 365 days a year that our Earth has, making 300 years the same on Miri's Earth as our Earth.

I agree with this assessment. It doesn't prove the date, no one story does, but it's an occurrence of when a time frame is given, unlike Doomsday Machine, where no other time but stardates is given at all.

I always assumed the parallel Earth had something to do with the Preservers or any of those other super powered beings, like Trelane. I'm sure Trelane isn't the only one of his kind, he's got parents, that implies there are at least several.

Or it could have been created by extra dimensional beings that needed a super computer to calculate the ultimate question.

 

[Noname Given]

Bear in mind, Miri's "Earth" was an exact duplicate. There were many worlds that were very "Earth-like" almost to a painful degree but none of them were an exact duplicate. Even Omega 4 with the Yangs' Constitution was not very much like Earth in appearance. Tyree's world, Capella, the Romans' world and Zeon and Ekos were all Earth-like but not identical, list not exhaustive.

Well, to be fair; Omega IV (the "Yang's Earth") existed EONS before our Earth; so in that case our Earth was the parallel developed world here.

 

[BK613]

Well, to be fair; Omega IV (the "Yang's Earth") existed EONS before our Earth; so in that case our Earth was the parallel developed world here.

Yes, I always liked that quirk of the story.

 

[Henoch]

I think the writers of the episode were trying to tell us that Miri's Earth was exactly like ours in every way though. They even noted it was the 3rd planet from it's sun. I think they wanted us to believe it was like our Earth in every way, as impossible as that may sound. It's one reason I think the timeline's match also. I actually believe the intent was that Miri's Earth had the same 24 hour days and 365 days a year that our Earth has, making 300 years the same on Miri's Earth as our Earth.

Instead of just a duplicate Earth, are we to assume that the entire Sol solar system was also duplicated, too. That's even more impressive to whip up. Still easier for a spacial anomaly to shift the solar system between universes. Now, was it natural or alien-created spacial anomaly; a bigger version of that which occurred to the Defiant?

 

[cooleddie74]

Also never mind the fact that the bacteriological holocaust on Omega IV happened much earlier than World War III on Earth since Wu the Kohm lieutenant to Captain Tracey is 462 years old at the time of the episode with his great longevity created by the war, meaning that the conflict must have happened during Earth's 19th century and at that point the civilization on Omega IV must have had technology that was at least on par with mid-20th century Earth.

Omega IV was ahead of both Earth and Miri's Planet in technological development. Not bad for a world where the survivors of the war existed at an early industrial or even pre-industrial level.

 

[BK613]

Also never mind the fact that the bacteriological holocaust on Omega IV happened much earlier than World War III on Earth since Wu the Kohm lieutenant to Captain Tracey is 462 years old at the time of the episode with his great longevity created by the war, meaning that the conflict must have happened during Earth's 19th century and at that point the civilization on Omega IV must have had technology that was at least on par with mid-20th century Earth.

Omega IV was ahead of both Earth and Miri's Planet in technological development. Not bad for a world where the survivors of the war existed at an early industrial or even pre-industrial level.

Wu's father is over a thousand years old so your talking Earth's 11th or 12th Century at least. McCoy's description of "their ancestors" make seem even longer than that:

KIRK: Then we can leave any time we want to. Tracey is of the opinion these immunizing agents can become a fountain of youth. There are people here over a thousand years old, Bones.
MCCOY: Survival of the fittest, because their ancestors who survived had to have a superior resistance. Then they built up these powerful protective antibodies in the blood during the wars. Now, if you want to destroy a civilization or a whole world, your descendants might develop a longer life, but I hardly think it's worth it.

 

[cooleddie74]

Good catch! Yeah, Omega IV was probably a thousand years ahead of 20th century Earth technologically. Earth may be the parallel development of Omega IV.

It makes one wonder...had the war not happened would the Omegans have been the first humans to achieve warp drive and explore the galaxy?

 

[Marsden]

Good catch! Yeah, Omega IV was probably a thousand years ahead of 20th century Earth technologically. Earth may be the parallel development of Omega IV.

It makes one wonder...had the war not happened would the Omegans have been the first humans to achieve warp drive and explore the galaxy?

Maybe they did until the war.

 

[cooleddie74]

Some fanfilm series needs to get to work on that concept. A lost Omegan spacecraft, dead in space for a thousand or more years.

 

[Damian]

Instead of just a duplicate Earth, are we to assume that the entire Sol solar system was also duplicated, too. That's even more impressive to whip up. Still easier for a spacial anomaly to shift the solar system between universes. Now, was it natural or alien-created spacial anomaly; a bigger version of that which occurred to the Defiant?

Not necessarily. The planet could simply be in the same position from it's star as ours is, and rotates at the same rate. The other planets wouldn't necessarily have to be duplicates in that scenario.

 

[uniderth]

Or it could have been created by extra dimensional beings that needed a super computer to calculate the ultimate question.

Unfortunately it got a virus.

Earth may be the parallel development of Omega IV.

Oooohhh. Now that's an interesting concept.

Some fanfilm series needs to get to work on that concept. A lost Omegan spacecraft, dead in space for a thousand or more years.

Maybe the crew is stuck in suspended animation and their leader is the Genghis Khan of their planet. Then Khan is awoken and claims to be an engineer while recovering in sickbay. Later Khan tries to take over the ship and the captain has to subdue him with plastic rods out of an engineering panel. Then a few years later maybe they could make a movie sequel.

Eh never mind. Who in their right mind would want to watch that?

 

[Henoch]

Some fanfilm series needs to get to work on that concept. A lost Omegan spacecraft, dead in space for a thousand or more years.

Was Eugenics development by humans or by visiting aliens from Omega IV? Earlier, did they provide Thomas Jefferson and the founding fathers with crazy ideas like, "We the People..." or the holy words, "Ee'd Plebnista..." The same group of Omegaens could be responsible since they live for 1000+ years.

 

[Mytran]

The presence of all these human looking "aliens" got me wondering a while back - what if they were that; precisely human?

It's accepted science that time and space are linked, and warping one can affect the other. Then there's casual way in which Spock mentions the "time warp" in Tomorrow Is Yesterday and I have to wonder if time distortions (and by extension, time travel) are just one of those given risks associated with Warp travel. Modern Warp Engines would be finely tuned to avoid this of course, but in the early days of space colonialism I expect there were many ships (with more primitive FTL systems) that were lost without a trace, presumed destroyed through engine malfunction. It would not have been for decades or even centuries later that the truth is uncovered - the colony ships were not lost, but sent backwards in time.

The exact number of years they were displaced by need not have been constant and could have ranged from decades to centuries or even millennia. The result is that there are numerous planets populated by what might biologically be called humans, but are so culturally (or even technologically) estranged from their planet of origin that they are to most intents and purposes an alien race. After all, the Warhammer 40k universe has several species of "aliens" that started off as Terran humans.

In a slightly unrelated note, this might explain why Kirk feels he has the right to interfere in so many of the societies he visits each week, if their distant ancestry is indeed his own species.

Just wondering...

 

[Henoch]

Modern Warp Engines would be finely tuned to avoid this of course, but in the early days of space colonialism I expect there were many ships (with more primitive FTL systems) that were lost without a trace, presumed destroyed through engine malfunction. It would not have been for decades or even centuries later that the truth is uncovered - the colony ships were not lost, but sent backwards in time.

This would make a better movie or basis for a year long mystery for a science fiction series...

 

[JonnyQuest037]

In a way this debate is pretty much meaningless these days.

...In a way?

It's fun to debate what the original intent was back in 1966-1969.

Yeah, agreed. I find it fun to try and view TOS through that prism.