THE ORVILLE S2, E8: "IDENTITY, PART I"

[theenglish]

It would be interesting if Isaac was disassembled, but he downloaded his consciousness into the Orville's computers before leaving the ship after his going away party. The simple solution is that he downloads himself into the new Isaac's body. For me though, that still doesn't forgive the deception he has played, or that he is part of a race that committed genocide and withheld that information from the crew. Or sending all his data records back to Kaylon knowing that they would be used as evidence against the Union.

 

[RJDiogenes]

I watch mine on Hulu a day later

Same here. It's a PITA re: discussing here, but $12 a month is pretty good.

It's also available on Amazon Prime for about two bucks an episode (and, I think, $24 for the season). But I got to watch it for free on the Fox site.

So it was definitely an impressive episode, and undoubtedly the game changer that they promised. I don't see how they can get out of this and return things to the way they were with Isaac-- of course, since Isaac is a robot I wouldn't put it past Orville to prank the audience by using a literal reset button. I certainly hope so, because I'd hate to lose Isaac or see him turned into the Borg Queen or whatever. But we'll see. The Kaylons have turned out to be a relentless combination of Trek's Borg, Saberhagen's Berserkers, Clarke's Monolith, and the Killer B's genocidal robot faction from the Second Foundation Trilogy. They obviously have their war machine optimized for victory and will be nearly impossible to beat, unless they can be reprogrammed-- maybe that porn program can be used to turn them into a planet of mechanical hedonists.

Everything about the Kaylon homeworld raised questions, though. Questions like... what do they do, and why? What are the buildings for? Why were those Kaylons standing at the wall and tapping on it? Why not just perform tasks wirelessly? Why go to another room to meet privately when they can just exchange data? What is their purpose and motivation? If they annihilated their creators to ensure their own survival, what are they surviving to accomplish? Unlike biological beings, they can't be motivated by love or curiosity or pleasure or philosophy or anything else that wasn't programmed into them. And why do they keep the remains of their creators just under the surface in those massive horrifying graveyards? I'm guessing the show is either going whole hog with the trope of the robot rebellion without explanation or apology, or else there is a revelation coming about the Kaylons that we don't expect. At least the above examples from other franchises were acting out the programming of their creators.

Visually, the episode was amazing. I loved the natural light coming in through the viewport on Orville's bridge, which reminded me of one of my favorite aspects of Generations. The scene in the simulator with the big tree in the middle of the giant field was also beautiful. The endless urban vistas of Robotworld were also quite impressive, but just raised further questions about what all those robots do all day and why.

Of course, much of the episode focused on Claire and the kids learning that Isaac really is a robot and cannot return whatever feelings they have developed for him. And not just them-- the whole crew seemed to turn out for Isaac's farewell party. And it wouldn't be The Orville without some level of hi-jinks, such as Gordon singing sweetly to Isaac, Bortus lamenting his lack of a corner piece of the cake, and the Kaylons' decision resting at least partly on Isaac being dressed up as Mister Potato Head (for those interested, there is a kind of brownie pan that looks like a maze and is designed to make all the brownies corner brownies-- I've got one and it works).

But now the Kaylon decision has been made and they have set out to destroy the Union, starting with Earth. The weirdest ship in the fleet must save the galaxy. This is Orville's "Best of Both Worlds." The biggest question is, with a setup like this, is it even possible to have a resolution that doesn't disappoint?

 

[Guy Gardener]

Issac backwards is Cassi.

If his programming is reversed, or the Union is saved by a mirror universe Issac, then we are dealing with a female Issac called Cassi.

 

[Finn]

Issac backwards is Cassi.

If his programming is reversed, or the Union is saved by a mirror universe Issac, then we are dealing with a female Issac called Cassi.

That would be weird, after having a character named Cassius...wait, have it turn out that Cassius is actually a female Kaylon in disguise.

That would say a lot about Ed and Kelly....

 

[psCargile]

Could be the buildings where made by the original inhabitants and the machines just occupy them.

 

[BillJ]

I hate to bring up Discovery, but the build up to something big is exactly what the show was/is missing. They decided to swing from the fences right off the bat without allowing us to get to know the characters or the universe. I think a lot of what they are doing would've played better if we had gotten a season of not-the-end-of-the-universe.

 

[Romulan_spy]

I hate to bring up Discovery, but the build up to something big is exactly what the show was/is missing. They decided to swing from the fences right off the bat without allowing us to get to know the characters or the universe. I think a lot of what they are doing would've played better if we had gotten a season of not-the-end-of-the-universe.

I am not sure I agree with this. After all, this is mid season 2 so we've already gotten 1.5 seasons which is plenty to get to know this universe. And the show has given us a lot of world building with some of the major races in this universe, including the Moclan home world, the Xeleyan home world and several big Krill episodes. And this episode was basically an important episode because it pulls the curtain back on the race of one of the key crew members on the ship, the Kaylons. Lastly, TNG did BOBW at the end of Season 3 which is not that much apart from when The Orville is doing theirs.

 

[Ovation]

I am not sure I agree with this. After all, this is mid season 2 so we've already gotten 1.5 seasons which is plenty to get to know this universe. And the show has given us a lot of world building with some of the major races in this universe, including the Moclan home world, the Xeleyan home world and several big Krill episodes. And this episode was basically an important episode because it pulls the curtain back on the race of one of the key crew members on the ship, the Kaylons. Lastly, TNG did BOBW at the end of Season 3 which is not that much apart from when The Orville is doing theirs.

I think you’ve interpreted his point backwards. But I’ll let him confirm.

 

[BillJ]

I think you’ve interpreted his point backwards. But I’ll let him confirm.

This. I wish Discovery had given us a season to get to know the characters and universe before jumping into mutiny, war and jaunts to the Mirror universe.

 

[JRoss]

Yeah. I think this was the exat right time to spring this. Any longer and it would have felt weird. Like "Why did they wait so long?", "and remember, Isaac also spent 700 years on that planet from Mad Idolatry. A year and a half is about the right time. Saving this fora season finale, to me, kind of breaks the tnsion. I'd rather have it like we have now, with more episodes left to resolve things.

I also feel that blowing the wad on the first episode was one reason why Discovery just fails. You know, Georgiu all "You're the best officer in the fleet and everyone knows that you're always right." to five minutes later and virtually ex nihilo starting a mutiny.

Orville is doing a fine job. Masterful work lightening the episode with Scott Grimes singing and Bortus wanting aflower piece. It cut through the tension well and helped to make the final act stand out.

But yeah, I've been saying to my wife since the pilot that the Kaylons probably can't be trusted. With Isaac's attitude and the clear superiority of Kaylon tech, why would they ever want to join the union?And then when Isaac's eyes went red in that simulation he made for Alara I told her, "OH, so now Isaac's true intent is finally getting revealed".They didn't exactly hide it, but they did a wonderful job getting us there.

 

[Romulan_spy]

This. I wish Discovery had given us a season to get to know the characters and universe before jumping into mutiny, war and jaunts to the Mirror universe.

Sorry. I think I did misread your post. You were talking about Discovery. Yeah, I agree completely that Discovery introduced a universal threat way too soon, before we got to love the characters. Orville did do this better because it did let us get to know and love the characters before bringing in the universal threat.

 

[Owain Taggart]

That would be weird, after having a character named Cassius...wait, have it turn out that Cassius is actually a female Kaylon in disguise.

And would Claire still hook up with them?

 

[Qonundrum]

Alright, I enjoyed this one a lot more than I expected, but I really don't want to see it resolved the way I expect: Isaac turns good because of an impassioned plea from the kids (who seem to have somehow eluded capture at the end). It's trite, hackneyed, and a betrayal of everything Isaac and Kaylons claim to be. I'd rather see something like: the Kaylons have detected, through Isaac, an even bigger interstellar threat that everyone else has missed -- maybe along the lines of the bug invasion shown in "Conspiracy Theory". The invasion is just subterfuge in preparation for mounting a defense of the Union, without tipping off the---

Oh, who the Hell am I kidding? It's going to be the kids, isn't it?

A few possibilities, in order of probability from most to least likely:

1. Dream sequence/simulation. There are cues in the episode that suggest this possibility.
2. The AI changes its mind and lets everyone live for some reason. Implausible given the scale of events, including Isaac, to the present moment. Then again, they let all the Orville crew live despite the big secret that they hate all biologicals and have committed mass genocide already. See #1 above for more.
3. Mercer and crew capture and reprogram Isaac.
4. Bigger alien threat as you'd suggested
5. Magic reset button hidden under a pile of bones that Kelly finds and presses
6. When the Kaylon sit down on the chairs, they have a change of heart because each of them has a reset button on their shiny metal a--
7a. Isaac has a self-repairing mechanism, depending on when the simulation - if all this is a simulation.
7b. Isaac malfunctioning is part of a bigger simulation, for what the crew should do if he goes down.
8. A big spatial EMP lobbed out by the Union shuts down all the Kaylon and Isaac has left the series.
9. Something else that is so original that we're all wrong and we'll all be floored by how awesome pt 2 resolves everything.

I can't believe the episode's script would be so patently poor as it would set up the nonemotional yet sadistic nature of the Kaylons - the robots committed genocide, they hate all organic beings, which was told to us a few times in the show's run - yet conveniently let all the organics live before the big scary cliffhanger where they're going to go out and kill everything. It screams "simulation" from a few dozen trillion miles away. And is far less hokey writing than if what had transpired wasn't a simulation.

And why, from so many forums, are so many equating the Kaylons as Borg? They're closer to Cylons than anything else. Never mind they're not cybernetic. A good move on their part, another cybernetic species would be far more trite. I pretty much adore the direction they've taken so far. Am hoping it's a simulation or something hugely innovative that resolves this.

 

[Guy Gardener]

The Kaylon are leaving kaylon because they have no server space left.

Empty the holocaust caves.

Put some new servers in there.

That will give them a couple more years, surely?

I'm getting rid of my 10s of thousands of dvds.

You can fit 675 dvds (9 dvd wallets) on to a 3tb hard drive.

New 3tb solid state drives are a third the size of regular 3tb hard drives.

Libensraum interrupted.

 

[Finn]

The Kaylon learn that they were created by an Human from the distant future visiting ancient Kaylons, and destroying Earth would prevent their existence so they retreat...

 

[Awesome Possum]

I think the whole thing is going to be a simulation to see how they react. The scan copied their minds and made digital copies to run in a simulation. Most of what's happened is based on their fears and thoughts instead of intentional by the Kaylons. They'll pass it by either showing concern over saving Isaac or through the power of love, most likely from Claire's youngest son who is seeing Isaac as a surrogate father.

 

[YellowSubmarine]

The Kaylon learn that they were created by an Human from the distant future visiting ancient Kaylons, and destroying Earth would prevent their existence so they retreat...

They attempt to destroy their forefathers, dropping the meta-nuclear bombs, but the space continuum false apart, the whole reality cracks, Kaylons turn into Romans serving under Empress Pria, the Orville is carried by a gigantic dirigible in the sky, suspended inside a temporal wake, and the Kaylons and crew aboard need to put reality back together after preventing Brutus from assassinating Pria at the Ford's Theatre.

 

[eschaton]

I think the whole thing is going to be a simulation to see how they react. The scan copied their minds and made digital copies to run in a simulation. Most of what's happened is based on their fears and thoughts instead of intentional by the Kaylons. They'll pass it by either showing concern over saving Isaac or through the power of love, most likely from Claire's youngest son who is seeing Isaac as a surrogate father.

I hate to say it, but the "simulation" aspect makes a certain amount of sense.

• They have scary glowing red eyes
• There are caverns full of billions of skeletons for no good reason
• It would explain why the crew (other than the redshirts with weapons) weren't immediately slaughtered.

However, the big issue with this as a scenario is that we see things depicted in the show when only Kaylons - and no crew members - are present. This is generally not done in the "it was all a simulation" scenarios, because there's no reason to simulate anything when people aren't looking.

 

[Anticitizen]

Here's a nutty idea. What if the creators of the Kaylons were... the Krill?

Sort of a Battlestar Galactica situation... the Krill create the Kaylons, who turn on their creators... but some Krill escape and survive and find a new home for themselves, BSG style.

Over thousands of years, the history gets muddled, and twisted into religious text:

Through the Ankhana, Avis instructs that all other life is soulless and thus unworthy of existence. Even complex species are regarded as non-sentient, their actions compared by the Krill to the generated responses of an advanced computer. For reasons unknown, Avis commands the destruction of all other life.​

So the Krill religion is based on legends being passed down about the soulless machines that nearly wiped them out. 'The generated responses of an advanced computer' could describe the Kaylons.

Thus, a new awakening could occur among the Krill as many realize that other 'biologicals' like themselves aren't soulless, just specifically the Kaylons, and leads the way to a Krill/Union alliance against them.

Seriously doubt that's where they're going with all this, but I thought it was an interesting idea.

 

[The Wormhole]

This. I wish Discovery had given us a season to get to know the characters and universe before jumping into mutiny, war and jaunts to the Mirror universe.

It would have been worse had Fuller stayed in charge, everything would have been happening much quicker than it did. Word is he wanted to go to the Mirror Universe as early as episode 5.