Just how old is Capt Pike? (based on 1 line in Saints of Imperfection)

[Longinus]

Not remotely.

Non-causality braking FTL as depicted in Star Trek is literally impossible. As in not that we don't know how to do it, it cannot be done, ever. Any FTL, should such be somehow achieved, would lead to time travel. Ask Einstein if you don't believe me.

Moneyless society on the other hand is a perfectly natural byproduct of effective post-scarcity conditions, and could be achieved with perfectly non-physics-breaking technologies.

 

[Greg Cox]

Yeah, where did this whole "post-scarcity" notion come from? I don't remember this term or concept ever being thrown around on the original show, let alone being as intrinsic to the franchise as people keep suggesting. By contrast, every third episode of TOS seemed to involve the Enterprise or some distant colony being in desperate need of some vital element, medicine, piece of technology, etc, because of a plague, famine, or whatever.

Just look at "Devil in the Dark," one of the quintessential STAR TREK episodes: not only are the miners hoping to strike it rich, not only is the Federation in urgent need of pergium (as Kirk constantly reminds us), but when a vital mechanical component is stolen, Scotty can't just easily replicate another and the whole life-support system starts breaking down.

Does that seem like a future of "unlimited" energy and materials? Heck, the very first STAR TREK episode to ever air featured a remote outpost in desperate need of salt for Pete's sake.

STAR TREK was never about life in a "post-scarcity" utopia. It was about exploring strange new worlds, seeking out new life and civilizations, etc. IMHO.

 

[Agony_Boothb]

Yet they have warp drive!

No-money thing however is far more realistic. If you have high level of automatisation, practically unlimited energy and means to convert that energy into any material object you might ever desire, money kinda loses most of its purpose.

I mean in the real world. A moneyless society is workable in fiction but I don't think it's workable in modern society.

 

[Longinus]

Yeah, where did this whole "post-scarcity" notion come from? I don't remember this term or concept ever being thrown around on the original show, let alone being as intrinsic to the franchise as people keep suggesting. By contrast, every third episode of TOS seemed to involve the Enterprise or some distant colony being in desperate need of some vital element, medicine, piece of technology, etc, because of a plague, famine, or whatever.

Just look at "Devil in the Dark," one of the quintessential STAR TREK episodes: not only are the miners hoping to strike it rich, not only is the Federation in urgent need of pergium (as Kirk constantly reminds us), but when a vital mechanical component is stolen, Scotty can't just easily replicate another and the whole life-support system starts breaking down.

Does that seem like a future of "unlimited" energy and materials? Heck, the very first STAR TREK episode to ever air featured a remote outpost in desperate need of salt for Pete's sake.

Yeah, but that's the outskirts. It think Earth was pretty post-scarcity even back then. Though the whole thing isn't fully fledged until TNG.

STAR TREK was never about life in a "post-scarcity" utopia. It was about exploring strange new worlds, seeking out new life and civilizations, etc. IMHO.

TNG era Federation seems pretty post-scarcity, but indeed, you're right, it was never about the uncomplicated lives of normal people in that society; that would be boring. Doesn't mean that it doesn't exist in the background.

 

[Tuskin38]

Alright, Georgiou's Academy years come from this bio Voq found in Butcher's Knife

 

[Longinus]

I mean in the real world. A moneyless society is workable in fiction but I don't think it's workable in modern society.

Well, I think the modern work-for-money economy must collapse pretty soon. Robotisation will ensure that. Once robots can do pretty much everything people can, except faster and better, it can no longer work.

 

[Nerys Myk]

Alright, Georgiou's Academy years come from this bio Voq found in Butcher's Knife

I can't read that.

 

[Longinus]

I'd really ignore such barely visible background details. It is just text to fill the space.

 

[Tuskin38]

It’s probably clearer on blu-Ray, this cap comes from streaming

I don’t have a blu-ray drive on my PC so it’s the best I can do

Someone on Memory-Alpha can apparently read it.

 

[Greg Cox]

I'd really ignore such barely visible background details. It is just text to fill the space.

I'm inclined to agree, although, to be fair, at this point anybody making a STAR TREK show has to realize that determined fans are going to freeze-frame the hell out of any such display . . .

 

[CorporalClegg]

Non-causality braking FTL as depicted in Star Trek is literally impossible.

So is post-scarcity.

 

[Longinus]

So is post-scarcity.

Effective post-scarcity is not. Once anything people reasonably need can be provided, it is enough. Free housing, food, toys and other hobby items etc.

 

[Pondwater]

47

 

[Greg Cox]

Yeah, but that's the outskirts. It think Earth was pretty post-scarcity even back then. Though the whole thing isn't fully fledged until TNG.

TNG era Federation seems pretty post-scarcity, but indeed, you're right, it was never about the uncomplicated lives of normal people in that society; that would be boring. Doesn't mean that it doesn't exist in the background.

Hard to say what Earth was like during TOS since we never actually saw it until the movies, but even then I don't remember them making a big deal out of how its economy did or didn't work. We hear that Romulan ale is illegal, that people exchange gifts on birthdays, and that apparently you need to go to a bar and cough up some serious dough to hire a private spaceship to go to Genesis . . . . .

Personally, I've never much worried about how the Federation's economy works in the 23rd century because STAR TREK, to my mind, isn't about that. It's about exploring the final frontier and all that.

(I generally try to duck the subject altogether in my Trek books.)

 

[Yistaan]

Was Georgiou's academy time actually mentioned/seen somewhere on screen, or is it just guessed from her birthdate?

From: https://memory-alpha.fandom.com/wiki/Personnel_file

 

[CorporalClegg]

Effective post-scarcity is not. Once anything people reasonably need can be provided, it is enough. Free housing, food, toys and other hobby items etc.

Those two things are mutually exclusive.

If humanity got its shit together, we could accomplish the later now.

 

[Yistaan]

The realism of the Federation being without money can make an entire thread in itself, and I'm wondering if it should be spun off as such.

However, I don't think the canonicity of it should be in doubt--you don't get much more clear cut than Jean-Luc Picard outright saying, "Money doesn't exist in the twenty-fourth century," and Tom Paris saying, "The new world economy took shape in the late twenty second century and money went the way of the dinosaur".

It sure isn't realistic, but Star Trek isn't realistic about a lot of things.

Personally I'm beginning to suspect the Federation has one large Betazoid secret society (similar or a part of Section 31) mind-reading on a massive scale what exactly people want and how to manipulate a money-less society to give it to them. Sort of like how the Second Foundation was basically mind-controlling everyone if you've read Isaac Asimov's Foundation novels.

 

[Nerys Myk]

The realism of the Federation being without money can make an entire thread in itself,

And it has, many times.

 

[CorporalClegg]

The realism of the Federation being without money can make an entire thread in itself, and I'm wondering if it should be spun off as such.

However, I don't think the canonicity of it should be in doubt--you don't get much more clear cut than Jean-Luc Picard outright saying, "Money doesn't exist in the twenty-fourth century," and Tom Paris saying, "The new world economy took shape in the late twenty second century and money went the way of the dinosaur"..

And both examples perfectly demonstrate - as I noted above - what is shown contradicts what is told.

If the E-E is the most advanced [sic best] ship and if what Picard implies is 100% accurate, then why isn't every ship in the fleet a Sovereign? Whether it's because of material availability or time of completion, or a myriad of other possible reasons, Sovereign ships hold a higher value over Galaxy or Nebula or even the Defiant, Akira and Saber ships and certainly more valuable than the three-quarter century old Meranda and Excelsior ships that were still widely used across the entire fleet. If "waste not, want not" is still a prevailing axiom, then things still have value.

And ignoring the infinite shuttle/torpedo syndrome (which I think we can all agree was the product of bad writing), why did so many episodes of Voyager revolve around them desperately looking for shit they were in dire need and about to run out of? The bio-gel packs were treated like gold because they couldn't make more of them. In other words, a vital component to Intrepid design was a scarcity. The bio-gel packs hold value.

And if things hold value, then three needs to be a system in place in order to regulate it.

 

[Greg Cox]

When McCoy says, "Damnit, Jim, this is a post-scarcity economy, not an Orion flea market," I will buy that STAR TREK is about future economics . . . maybe.

Story-wise, there's something to be said for an exotic frontier environment where you can have shady merchants and traders, smugglers, lost treasures, ransoms, heists, capers, and all that fun stuff.

Case in point: In the latest DISCO novel, teenage runaway Sylvia Tilly ends up working her way across the quadrant, while scrounging for a living with only a few credits to her name, which makes for much more interesting tale than a story about her blithely making her way through a "post-scarcity" society . . .