Just how old is Capt Pike? (based on 1 line in Saints of Imperfection)

[Yistaan]

I was talking about TOS / 23rd century. But even so, Picard is saying, in a convoluted way, that "money" still does exist! It's just not "money" as we understand it. He says "the acquisition of wealth" isn't important, but "we work to better ourselves". That implies that you get something in return for bettering yourself, and your net "wealth" is how much better your are than someone else. Ergo, you get "paid". Maybe it's not money, but it is goods and services that you trade "for the betterment of society", and how much you contribute is determined by how much you can share with everyone else (i.e. it's a socialist society based on competing levels of "be best"...).

As I said, what "money" represents has shifted over time, but it can't be eliminated.

I'm not sure how much more clear cut you can get when Jean-Luc Picard outright says, "You see, money doesn't exist in the twenty-fourth century."

As for getting something in return for bettering yourself, I guess the 24th century is a LOT nicer than the 21st. I know far too many people, possibly including myself, who not only did not get much, if anything, in return for bettering themselves--you're also extraordinarily lucky if you aren't permanently punished in some way...

 

[F. King Daniel]

For whatever it's worth, Voyager's Tom Paris said "The New World Economy took over in the late 22nd century, and money went the way of the dinosaur."

So either those references to money in TOS have gone the way of theoretical cloaking devices, or Voyager doesn't count. Take your pick

 

[WarpFactorZ]

I'm not sure how much more clear cut you can get when Jean-Luc Picard outright says, "You see, money doesn't exist in the twenty-fourth century."

As for getting something in return for bettering yourself, I guess the 24th century is a LOT nicer than the 21st. I know far too many people, possibly including myself, who not only did not get much, if anything, in return for bettering themselves--you're also extraordinarily lucky if you aren't permanently punished in some way...

Money based on wealth (e.g. representing a portion of gold stored at Fort Knox) doesn't exist. But money based on ability to contribute to society does. And as history shows, not everyone will be able to generate the same amount of this money, as determined by their skill set. In a Capitalist society, those with better skills are "rich", and those without are "poor". A class system is inevitable in this case. So, the utopian society in the 24th century is a socialist one in which we all contribute our fair share of skills for the betterment of everyone.

But it's still "money", no matter how you spin it.

 

[Yistaan]

For whatever it's worth, Voyager's Tom Paris said "The New World Economy took over in the late 22nd century, and money went the way of the dinosaur."

So either those references to money in TOS have gone the way of theoretical cloaking devices, or Voyager doesn't count. Take your pick

So there you have it, all the TOS references were obviously to latinum spent for societies that do use money, like the Orion colony. No wonder we never heard of Spock going through another pon farr ever again. Kirk probably instituted his own illicit little currency based kingdom on board the Enterprise, with a don't ask don't tell policy to Starfleet command, and that's why the senior staff stayed with Kirk and the Enterprise for 27 years. It all makes sense.

And going back to the origin of this little discussion, this means that any bartender would have denied cadets Georgiou and Pike alcohol because they didn't have money and providing it to them wasn't going to better themselves.

Forget the Romulan war, we need a movie where Archer and T'Pol plot to wipe out all money with their New World Economy.

No wonder Balthazar Edison aka Krall hated the Federation so much in Star Trek Beyond. They literally took away all his money!

 

[Turtletrekker]

Star Trek First Contact (1996)--
LILY: It took me six months to scrounge up enough titanium just to build a four-metre cockpit. ...How much did this thing cost?
PICARD: The economics of the future are somewhat different. ...You see, money doesn't exist in the twenty-fourth century.
LILY: No money! That means you don't get paid.
PICARD: The acquisition of wealth is no longer the driving force in our lives. ...We work to better ourselves ...and the rest of humanity. Actually we're rather like yourself and Doctor Cochrane.

Counter argument from DS9's "In The Cards" written by the same script writer...

"It's my money, Jake! If you want to bid at the auction, use your own money."
"I'm Human, I don't have any money."
"It's not my fault that your species decided to abandon currency-based economics in favor of some philosophy of self-enhancement."
"Hey, watch it. There's nothing wrong with our philosophy. We work to better ourselves and the rest of Humanity."
"What does that mean exactly?"
"It means... it means we don't need money!"
"Well, if you don't need money, then you certainly don't need mine!"
- Nog and Jake

 

[lawman]

But it's still "money", no matter how you spin it.

It really isn't. Lord knows this is a topic that keeps coming up again and again, but FWIW...

Money is a fungible means of exchange. That's a super-handy thing to have when (A) goods are scarce, and (B) your alternative is a barter system, which were the circumstances when money developed.

In a post-scarcity society, where plentiful energy is basically free and limitless, and that energy can be used to convert matter to different forms, transport it almost instantly across large distances, and power a vast information infrastructure, a means of exchange like that is simply superfluous. Everyone's needs (and desires) can be met at a cost so low as to be negligible. All money would do is insert an artificial medium that allows some people to hoard wealth at the expense of others... and obviously that would be socially undesirable.

That's basically the society the Federation has created in the 23rd century, and (even more so) in the 24th. The only things that wouldn't be freely available are (A) specialized personal services, like, e.g., live performances of some special talent, (B) new information from beyond the explored frontiers (of space, science, etc.), and (C) certain unique raw materials like, e.g., dilithium.

Of course, that's only within the Federation. Other societies play by their own rules. The Federation (as well as colony worlds, starbases, and exploratory ships out at its margins) of course has to interact with other societies who are not part of it, so inevitably it still understands the concept of money (in various forms) and has occasion to use it. Internally, though, it stands to reason it would be pretty much moot.

This is all my take, of course; it's never been spelled out in the show in any great detail. I think it's a take that's reasonably consistent with most if not all canonical references, though.

---
Also, I still maintain Christopher Pike was born c. 2219.

 

[Yistaan]

Also, I still maintain Christopher Pike was born c. 2219.

Pike was a child prodigy who went to the academy at 5 and engaged in underage drinking!

 

[Agony_Boothb]

Counter argument from DS9's "In The Cards" written by the same script writer...

"It's my money, Jake! If you want to bid at the auction, use your own money."
"I'm Human, I don't have any money."
"It's not my fault that your species decided to abandon currency-based economics in favor of some philosophy of self-enhancement."
"Hey, watch it. There's nothing wrong with our philosophy. We work to better ourselves and the rest of Humanity."
"What does that mean exactly?"
"It means... it means we don't need money!"
"Well, if you don't need money, then you certainly don't need mine!"
- Nog and Jake

This has to be one of my favourite scenes In all trekdom. DS9 did a good job of causing more confusion regarding 24th century economics. Clearly there has to be some type of income for federation citizens. How else could sisko buy his land. Maybe people replicate their own cash?

 

[lawman]

Sisko bought land on Bajor, no? Not part of the Federation, hence not part of the Federation economy, as I discussed above. We don't know what the economic system was on Bajor (at least, not as far as I recall), but presumably whatever it was, as a Federation citizen he had those resources available. It is indeed reasonable to speculate that Federation citizens, or at least Starfleet officers stationed on the frontier, may indeed be provided with some sort of "income" to facilitate external transactions.

We should also consider that in a future with literally countless habitable worlds, land qua land almost certainly doesn't carry the sort of premium value it does on present-day Earth. Heck, IIRC even the Ferengi didn't think land on Bajor was worth investing in.

 

[Yistaan]

For what it's worth, the Desperate Hours novel, which aligned with season 1 writer thinking, describes pike as young compared to georgiou.

 

[Lord Garth]

For whatever it's worth, Voyager's Tom Paris said "The New World Economy took over in the late 22nd century, and money went the way of the dinosaur."

So either those references to money in TOS have gone the way of theoretical cloaking devices, or Voyager doesn't count. Take your pick

That's easy. Chuck VOY. Also an opinion I also would've had in the Old Days.

Or "money" is a figure of speech. In TVH, Kirk says "They're still using money."

 

[Greg Cox]

We never actually saw the supposedly "money-less" Earth of the 23rd century on TOS, but Lord knows profit was still an issue out on the Final Frontier, where, as noted, there seemed to be no shortage of hardscrabble miners, con artists, mail-order brides, merchants, bartenders, belly dancers, and so on. Remember when Kirk and Spock posed as "traders in kevas and trillium"? We assume such traders are not giving their wares way for free, while that bartender in "Tribbles" wishes he could sell those Spican flame gems he got suckered into buying from Cyrano Jones. Honestly, you can watch every single episode of TOS and never hear the words "scarcity-free," but you can hear Kirk talk about how much Starfleet spent on Spock's training and joke about Scotty earning his paycheck.

And one likes to think that Kirk and company paid for their drinks in that bar on Argelius . . ..

 

[Phoenix219]

Could Pike just be a late enrollee, like Nathan Fillion on The Rookie?

 

[CorporalClegg]

It really isn't. Lord knows this is a topic that keeps coming up again and again, but FWIW...

Money is a fungible means of exchange. That's a super-handy thing to have when (A) goods are scarce, and (B) your alternative is a barter system, which were the circumstances when money developed.

This is extremely reductive.

More importantly, however, you ignore its most important function (even by modern standards): providing a practical logistical/administrative mechanism or service - which would only be more crucial in a society of trillions spread across countless cultures.

In a post-scarcity society,

Star Trek isn't post-scarcity. Not even close. People need to stop saying it is.

where plentiful energy is basically free and limitless,

Neither of these things is true - as proven with on-screen evidence time and time again.

and that energy can be used to convert matter to different forms, transport it almost instantly across large distances, and power a vast information infrastructure, a means of exchange like that is simply superfluous. Everyone's needs (and desires) can be met at a cost so low as to be negligible.

Again, on-screen evidence has proven over and over again that none of this is true. Everything has its limitations.

All money would do is insert an artificial medium that allows some people to hoard wealth at the expense of others... and obviously that would be socially undesirable.

This is a false dilemma bordering on a strawman.

That's basically the society the Federation has created in the 23rd century, and (even more so) in the 24th. The only things that wouldn't be freely available are (A) specialized personal services, like, e.g., live performances of some special talent, (B) new information from beyond the explored frontiers (of space, science, etc.), and (C) certain unique raw materials like, e.g., dilithium.

And with nothing to regulate these things who/what determines who is granted access to them?

The no money thing is the stupidest conceit of the whole franchise, a byproduct of a particular (bygone) era of pie-in-the-sky futurists who have very little comprehension of ... other things. And I can't think of another example from a different franchise where the showing so greatly contradicts the telling. (Which only goes to further prove what a poor conceptual choice it was to begin with.)

 

[Longinus]

No-money thing is a great idea and actually shows that the society of the future is radically different. It is just unimaginative people who are blinded by capitalist propaganda who cannot see it.

 

[Agony_Boothb]

No-money thing is a great idea and actually shows that the society of the future is radically different. It is just unimaginative people who are blinded by capitalist propaganda who cannot see it.

It's a great idea but as unrealistic as warp drive

 

[Longinus]

It's a great idea but as unrealistic as warp drive

Yet they have warp drive!

No-money thing however is far more realistic. If you have high level of automatisation, practically unlimited energy and means to convert that energy into any material object you might ever desire, money kinda loses most of its purpose.

 

[Tuskin38]

Was Georgiou's academy time actually mentioned/seen somewhere on screen, or is it just guessed from her birthdate?

 

[Phoenix219]

It's a great idea but as unrealistic as warp drive

Probably more unrealistic than Warp Drive.



Warp capability will come with a SERIOUS PRICE TAG.... believe it...! or EM drive or whatever real life equivalent we come up with.

 

[CorporalClegg]

No-money thing however is far more realistic. .

Not remotely.