Just how old is Capt Pike? (based on 1 line in Saints of Imperfection)

[Yistaan]

Sigh. And I suppose the barroom brawl in "The Trouble with Tribbles" sends a bad message, too.

I get what you're saying about binge-drinking in real life, but, honestly, when did we decide that STAR TREK is supposed to be a squeaky-clean Sunday school lesson, let alone a Very Special Episode of The Brady Bunch teaching proper behavior and good conduct at all times?

I guess my thinking is along the lines of the crew who objected to Nick Meyer's "No Smoking" sign on the Enterprise in Wrath of Khan. The ideal of the future is that there won't be smoking or binge drinking (although there is some drinking obviously, i.e. Scotty, O'Brien, Ten Forward, etc.)

Just to belabor a point, when did TOS ever establish that the Academy had a reputation for "strict military regimen"?

That's not the impression I got from Finnegan's antics in "Shore Leave."

Well, Riker did say something like, "How did Barclay get through the academy?"

Worf on his foster brother: "Nikolai has a mind of his own. He attended Starfleet Academy, but he was unable to follow the rules. He left after one year. But he has many fine qualities. He is brilliant, persuasive. A natural leader."

And as for Finnegan, well, I don't believe Shore Leave confirmed he ever actually graduated...

 

[Nerys Myk]

I guess my thinking is along the lines of the crew who objected to Nick Meyer's "No Smoking" sign on the Enterprise in Wrath of Khan. The ideal of the future is that there won't be smoking or binge drinking (although there is some drinking obviously, i.e. Scotty, O'Brien, Ten Forward, etc.)

Romulan Ale figures in at least two of the movies. In one of which they might have over done it a bit.

Well, Riker did say something like, "How did Barclay get through the academy?"

But somehow he did.

Worf on his foster brother: "Nikolai has a mind of his own. He attended Starfleet Academy, but he was unable to follow the rules. He left after one year. But he has many fine qualities. He is brilliant, persuasive. A natural leader."

They're probably a lot rules. Schools are like that. Rules doen't have to equal a "strict military regimen". We know Kirk was a bit of a grind, but guys like Finnegan and Mitchell seem to be a bit looser. Picard also seemed to be a bit reckless while attending.

 

[WarpFactorZ]

The ideal of the future is that there won't be smoking or binge drinking

Smoking and drinking have been a part of society for thousands and thousands of years. To think that they will be done away with in a couple of hundred years from now is simply ludicrous.

This is part of why we shouldn't place as much emphasis on the strict canon established in TOS. It was written by people who had no real clue about history or the foibles of humanity. Pulp sci-fi. The real science fiction authors understand the immutable and fundamental tenets of mankind, and know what is realistic. Heck, even Harlan Ellison's original script for "City" had a crewman tripping out because of drugs.

 

[DEWLine]

In my head canon, I chalk it up to Mendez being way older than either of them, so from his perspective they were both still a couple of young whippersnappers.

Works for me.
Now, I'm left wondering...what was Mendez up to during the DSC timeframe?

 

[Nerys Myk]

Works for me.
Now, I'm left wondering...what was Mendez up to during the DSC timeframe?

Listening sub-space chatter.

Was Piper an illusion too?

 

[Yistaan]

Smoking and drinking have been a part of society for thousands and thousands of years. To think that they will be done away with in a couple of hundred years from now is simply ludicrous.

This is part of why we shouldn't place as much emphasis on the strict canon established in TOS. It was written by people who had no real clue about history or the foibles of humanity. Pulp sci-fi. The real science fiction authors understand the immutable and fundamental tenets of mankind, and know what is realistic. Heck, even Harlan Ellison's original script for "City" had a crewman tripping out because of drugs.

To think that money and poverty would be done away with in a couple of hundred years is even more ludicrous. Yet this is confirmed in canon, particularly Time's Arrow and the First Contact movie.

Abolishing smoking and binge drinking sound way more realistic than abolishing money and poverty.

 

[DaveyNY]

Abolishing something and then actually getting rid of it, have often times not been the same thing in the history of Humanity.

 

[Yistaan]

Abolishing something and then actually getting rid of it, have often times not been the same thing in the history of Humanity.

Going back to the topic of Pike and Georgiou drinking themselves under the table at the academy--At the very least, it would be surprisingly easy to abolish alcohol on Starfleet Academy: eliminate all sales of it on campus and automatic expulsion for any caught with it.

You're probably right it won't be as easy to abolish in the wider galaxy.

An Academy alcohol ban might even be a realistic extrapolation of what could happen in our future considering the alcohol problem we currently face in real life universities. It's certainly far more realistic than abolishing money and poverty on Earth and expecting everyone to work to better themselves, (which Picard says is the case in First Contact).

 

[Nerys Myk]

Going back to the topic of Pike and Georgiou drinking themselves under the table at the academy--At the very least, it would be surprisingly easy to abolish alcohol on Starfleet Academy: eliminate all sales of it on campus and automatic expulsion for any caught with it.

You're probably right it won't be as easy to abolish in the wider galaxy.

It might even be a natural extrapolation of what could happen in our future considering the alcohol problem we currently face in real life universities. It's certainly far more realistic than abolishing money and poverty on Earth and expecting everyone to work to better themselves, (which Picard says is the case in First Contact).

Probably happened at the 602 Club off campus.

 

[Yistaan]

Probably happened at the 602 Club off campus.

The 602 won't serve the cadets. They aren't getting paid remember, they only work to better themselves. And serving a round to Pike and Georgiou isn't working to better themselves.

 

[Nerys Myk]

The 602 won't serve the cadets. They aren't getting paid remember, they only work to better themselves. And serving a round to Pike and Georgiou isn't working to better themselves.

You're at the wrong stop. You want the 24th Century.

 

[Yistaan]

You're at the wrong stop. You want the 24th Century.

It's news to me that money was abolished between the 23rd century and the 24th century and that this major incident was never talked about.

It must have been those Khitomer accords that really overreached themselves. I guess the Klingons only agreed to peace if the Federation gave up all their money.

And apparently the Federation agreed!

 

[Nerys Myk]

It's news to me that money was abolished between the 23rd century and the 24th century and that this major incident was never talked about.

It must have been those Khitomer accords that really overreached themselves. I guess the Klingons only agreed to peace if the Federation gave up all their money.

And apparently the Federation agreed!

Watch more TOS. They got miners making it rich, tribble salesmen and marriage "brokers". No idea what happened in the 24th.

 

[DaveyNY]

Watch more TOS. They got miners making it rich, tribble salesmen and marriage "brokers". No idea what happened in the 24th.

Don't forget Harry Mudd trying to make a Latinum Buck everywhere and every chance he can.

 

[Tuskin38]

It's news to me that money was abolished between the 23rd century and the 24th century and that this major incident was never talked about.

It must have been those Khitomer accords that really overreached themselves. I guess the Klingons only agreed to peace if the Federation gave up all their money.

And apparently the Federation agreed!

Money is mentioned a few times in TOS, it wasn't until TNG that the moneyless society was first mentioned.

But even some 24th episodes mention some sort of federation credit.

 

[Yistaan]

The ferengi messed up big time waiting for the 24th century to contact the federation huh?

286th Rule of Acquisition: Do not wait until a society has evolved beyond the need for money to initiate first contact.

 

[Ronald Held]

I can see certain cadets drinking heavily. Not certain they would graduate if it became a habit.

 

[WarpFactorZ]

It's news to me that money was abolished between the 23rd century and the 24th century and that this major incident was never talked about.

It must have been those Khitomer accords that really overreached themselves. I guess the Klingons only agreed to peace if the Federation gave up all their money.

And apparently the Federation agreed!

Where is the dialogue that suggests money is no more in the future? I can think of two instances, in STIV. First, Kirk realizes they need money because he sees the newspaper box requires coins. Second, Kirk tells Gillian that they don't use money in the 23rd century in the pizza place. Both, in context, refer to hard currency, but not necessarily the monetary system.

That is, abolishing "money" more likely means coins, bills, etc... We're on the path to doing that now, what with credit cards, iPay, Bitcoin and so forth. It's not unreasonable to expect that "money" will be a thing of the past in 50 years, let alone 250.

If you went back to the 80s expecting to pay for things by tapping your phone, you wouldn't have any "money" either.

Again, currency has been a part of society for thousands of years. It's a means of placing relative value of things in the world. What those things are have shifted over time, but it's an integral part of how we live. To expect this underlying foundation of civilization to evaporate in a couple hundred years is just as inane as expecting humans to give up on mind-altering recreational experiences (alcohol, caffeine, pot, whatever floats your boat).

 

[Yistaan]

Where is the dialogue that suggests money is no more in the future? I can think of two instances, in STIV. First, Kirk realizes they need money because he sees the newspaper box requires coins. Second, Kirk tells Gillian that they don't use money in the 23rd century in the pizza place. Both, in context, refer to hard currency, but not necessarily the monetary system.

That is, abolishing "money" more likely means coins, bills, etc... We're on the path to doing that now, what with credit cards, iPay, Bitcoin and so forth. It's not unreasonable to expect that "money" will be a thing of the past in 50 years, let alone 250.

If you went back to the 80s expecting to pay for things by tapping your phone, you wouldn't have any "money" either.

Again, currency has been a part of society for thousands of years. It's a means of placing relative value of things in the world. What those things are have shifted over time, but it's an integral part of how we live. To expect this underlying foundation of civilization to evaporate in a couple hundred years is just as inane as expecting humans to give up on mind-altering recreational experiences (alcohol, caffeine, pot, whatever floats your boat).

Star Trek First Contact (1996)--
LILY: It took me six months to scrounge up enough titanium just to build a four-metre cockpit. ...How much did this thing cost?
PICARD: The economics of the future are somewhat different. ...You see, money doesn't exist in the twenty-fourth century.
LILY: No money! That means you don't get paid.
PICARD: The acquisition of wealth is no longer the driving force in our lives. ...We work to better ourselves ...and the rest of humanity. Actually we're rather like yourself and Doctor Cochrane.

 

[WarpFactorZ]

Star Trek First Contact (1996)--
LILY: It took me six months to scrounge up enough titanium just to build a four-metre cockpit. ...How much did this thing cost?
PICARD: The economics of the future are somewhat different. ...You see, money doesn't exist in the twenty-fourth century.
LILY: No money! That means you don't get paid.
PICARD: The acquisition of wealth is no longer the driving force in our lives. ...We work to better ourselves ...and the rest of humanity. Actually we're rather like yourself and Doctor Cochrane.

I was talking about TOS / 23rd century. But even so, Picard is saying, in a convoluted way, that "money" still does exist! It's just not "money" as we understand it. He says "the acquisition of wealth" isn't important, but "we work to better ourselves". That implies that you get something in return for bettering yourself, and your net "wealth" is how much better your are than someone else. Ergo, you get "paid". Maybe it's not money, but it is goods and services that you trade "for the betterment of society", and how much you contribute is determined by how much you can share with everyone else (i.e. it's a socialist society based on competing levels of "be best"...).

As I said, what "money" represents has shifted over time, but it can't be eliminated.