Just because the Romulans have senators doesn't automatically mean that it's a democracy. The history of Ancient Rome proves that.
Does TNG depict the federation as a military dictatorship?
- Thread starter pallas
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Huh? That was the whole point of Star Trek! That was the whole reason it captivated a generation of fans, why it stood out from the pack of SFTV as something exceptional and worthy of devotion, why we're still talking about it more than half a century later. It was a future where humans no longer warred with one another, where all races and nationalities got along and worked together, where women were (theoretically) equal to men, where high technology benefited us and led us to the stars rather than corrupting or enslaving us -- and most of all, a future that wasn't a post-apocalyptic nuclear wasteland or overpopulated, resource-starved hellhole like most SF visions of the future at the time. You have to understand, people back then, during the Cold War and the Vietnam conflict, had such a pessimistic view of humanity's prospects for the future that for a TV show to postulate that human civilization still existed 300 years in the future, let alone thrived and led a peaceful interstellar civilization, was a deeply idealistic statement.
Yes, TNG took that idealism even further, like saying that humans no longer had any crime or greed and always got along with each other. But that's quite minor compared to the idealism built into TOS to begin with, the idea that the future wouldn't turn out like Planet of the Apes or Soylent Green or Rollerball or THX-1138 or Logan's Run or any of a hundred other sci-fi dystopias and post-apocalypses. Hell, even Lost in Space started with the premise that Earth was fatally overpopulated and had to be abandoned if humans were to survive (not unlike Firefly's "Earth was used up"). True, TOS gave Earth a dystopian near-future with the Eugenics Wars, but it showed that we moved beyond it and learned how to live in peace so that we could thrive as a species.
References to Sulu not being a werewolf were absent, but that doesn't prove he was a werewolf. It just proves it's such a ludicrous suggestion that it doesn't need to be refuted.
Huh? That's not how it works! The United States President has the authority to declare martial law, which is part of the President's Constitutionally defined powers as commander-in-chief of the armed forces. But that does not make the United States a dictatorship.
I mean, seriously, the whole point of martial law is that it's an exception for emergencies where the democratic process is too slow to work. If a nation were already a dictatorship, then declaring martial law would be redundant.
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Sorry, but this whole discussion makes not much sense.
Is there ANY sign, that the federation could be a dictatorship? In ANY era?
NO!
We just don't see much of politics. But why should we?
Anything we hear, makes sure, there IS an elected president (no King, Dictator or anything like this), and there is a council with representatives of the Federation members. This is said in many occations, beginning with TOS, when they said about T'Pau, she rejected a seat in the council, until the bajoran plans to join the Federation, when they would need a council member.
We also know, there where different presidents in the movies #4 and #6, members of different species, what doesn't look like dictatorship. In Star Trek IV we even saw the Federation Council with members of many different species. And they even judged about a military thing: Kirk's carreer.
Then we have president Jaresh-Inyo. Before his presidency, he was a council member for his people. A normal political carreer, that has nothing to do with dictatorship. And his time as president had even ended before the end of DS9, and there was nothing, that could make us believe, it happened NOT in a democratical way.
So there is absolutely NO reason to believe, the Federation is anything else but a democracy.
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Military Dictatorship? Nope.
There are numerous citations of, a President, a counsel, governors, etc. Now there hasn't been much evidence of HOW the system works, as in, Do the multitude of planets have there own system of government, on planet, and send a representative to the counsel to discuss Federation wide things??
Now, the future can be a "Socialist" model, and still be a democracy, where politics go astray is when its a "One Party" or a dictator, or Military system.
Socialist system, which is basically "Government Provided" Healthcare, work, etc. That government can still be a democratic one, looking at European models. Where Socialism and by extension, communism falls down, is that A. you run out of money, or B. you have an elite that is "More Equal" than the rest of the people ( Take Soviet Russia)
Now, with a "Post Scarcity" economy like star trek, there is no money, and most people are "Enlightened" enough to not take more than they need. Now in Star trek, there is free healthcare, free schools, free housing, Free etc. You can lounge around and watch Leave it to Worf, or pursue any endevour your mind can think of. Gone is, I have to work this crappy job to make ends meet.
So, as a thought experiment, here's what I think a Federation Government is:
Executive Branch:
President, Vice President, Cabinet officials
Legislative Branch:
Federation Counsel, comprised of representatives of all federation members, that make laws like the congress. Could be just the 1 body, like only the senate, no house.
Judical Branch:
You always have lawyers..
Federation planets are self rule, think of them like the Federation is the Federal Government, and planets are States. The states have to conform to a set of laws if they want to be a member, but they are mostly self rule.
New colonies have governors,
Starfleet is the military branch of the Federation, subservient to the Federation counsel.
There are numerous citations of, a President, a counsel, governors, etc. Now there hasn't been much evidence of HOW the system works, as in, Do the multitude of planets have there own system of government, on planet, and send a representative to the counsel to discuss Federation wide things??
Now, the future can be a "Socialist" model, and still be a democracy, where politics go astray is when its a "One Party" or a dictator, or Military system.
Socialist system, which is basically "Government Provided" Healthcare, work, etc. That government can still be a democratic one, looking at European models. Where Socialism and by extension, communism falls down, is that A. you run out of money, or B. you have an elite that is "More Equal" than the rest of the people ( Take Soviet Russia)
Now, with a "Post Scarcity" economy like star trek, there is no money, and most people are "Enlightened" enough to not take more than they need. Now in Star trek, there is free healthcare, free schools, free housing, Free etc. You can lounge around and watch Leave it to Worf, or pursue any endevour your mind can think of. Gone is, I have to work this crappy job to make ends meet.
So, as a thought experiment, here's what I think a Federation Government is:
Executive Branch:
President, Vice President, Cabinet officials
Legislative Branch:
Federation Counsel, comprised of representatives of all federation members, that make laws like the congress. Could be just the 1 body, like only the senate, no house.
Judical Branch:
You always have lawyers..
Federation planets are self rule, think of them like the Federation is the Federal Government, and planets are States. The states have to conform to a set of laws if they want to be a member, but they are mostly self rule.
New colonies have governors,
Starfleet is the military branch of the Federation, subservient to the Federation counsel.
Yes, but it took the razor sharp observational skills of 19th century Mark Twain to uncover this horrible truth!
Unfortunately, nefarious Starfleet propaganda still got to him only moments later in the guise of a sexy lady
Unfortunately, nefarious Starfleet propaganda still got to him only moments later in the guise of a sexy lady
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Now, Lets look at the Romulans and Klingons! 
Romulans:
Executive:
Praetor, Pro Counsel, Cabinet
Legislative:
Senate, with senators usually from powerful families, maybe some genuinely elected ones.
Judicial:
Probably.. Lawyers are like space roaches.. there everywhere!
Now, the Empire, it is a semi democracy, but more of a "One Party" Chinese model democracy.. Tow the party line, or get exiled.
As for colonies, or subjugated planets, you have governors, like the old British Empire model, of governors being sent by the empire to rule over the planet, no real "Self Rule". , Central control and power.
Still have money, jobs etc, like the Chinese/soviet model, you have a few families/people that control most of the government. Like ww2 germany, you have the SS or Stasi in the Tal Shiar, making sure the party line gets towed by the masses.
Klingons:
Executive:
Chancellor of the High Counsel, more than likely some type of "Cabinet"
Legislative:
High Counsel, members of the great houses, maybe some type of "Elected" seats.. maybe
Judicial:
Yep.. more Lawyers!
Now, the Empire... More of a fuedal system, have lords and kings, controling the land, money etc. there is a central power that sets the rules, you have governors of planets, if its a subguated planet, its a governor that has been sent in, if its a colony, you might have an elected governor, or one that is "Placed" by whichever "Great House" is in power on that planet.
Military, you have a central military, but you also have ships that are part of the great houses, that I gues "Loan" them to the military. No real distiction between the Military brass and the high counsel.
You still have money, but more of a Feudal system, in that the Great Houses control the land, etc. so a low house may have to align with a great house, have its sons serve there military, etc to get a parcel of land, some money etc.
Romulans:
Executive:
Praetor, Pro Counsel, Cabinet
Legislative:
Senate, with senators usually from powerful families, maybe some genuinely elected ones.
Judicial:
Probably.. Lawyers are like space roaches.. there everywhere!
Now, the Empire, it is a semi democracy, but more of a "One Party" Chinese model democracy.. Tow the party line, or get exiled.
As for colonies, or subjugated planets, you have governors, like the old British Empire model, of governors being sent by the empire to rule over the planet, no real "Self Rule". , Central control and power.
Still have money, jobs etc, like the Chinese/soviet model, you have a few families/people that control most of the government. Like ww2 germany, you have the SS or Stasi in the Tal Shiar, making sure the party line gets towed by the masses.
Klingons:
Executive:
Chancellor of the High Counsel, more than likely some type of "Cabinet"
Legislative:
High Counsel, members of the great houses, maybe some type of "Elected" seats.. maybe
Judicial:
Yep.. more Lawyers!
Now, the Empire... More of a fuedal system, have lords and kings, controling the land, money etc. there is a central power that sets the rules, you have governors of planets, if its a subguated planet, its a governor that has been sent in, if its a colony, you might have an elected governor, or one that is "Placed" by whichever "Great House" is in power on that planet.
Military, you have a central military, but you also have ships that are part of the great houses, that I gues "Loan" them to the military. No real distiction between the Military brass and the high counsel.
You still have money, but more of a Feudal system, in that the Great Houses control the land, etc. so a low house may have to align with a great house, have its sons serve there military, etc to get a parcel of land, some money etc.
Don't think the federation needed democracy apart from upholding the articales of the federation and deciding foreign policy.
I got the impression that the member worlds where left to rule themselves provided they follow some very basic tenants. That's the only way a multi species and multi cultural society could function.
A hive species for example would not be suitable to be run by democracy.
I got the impression that the member worlds where left to rule themselves provided they follow some very basic tenants. That's the only way a multi species and multi cultural society could function.
A hive species for example would not be suitable to be run by democracy.
Well, not representative democracy. But the thing originally wasn't anything of the sort - there was no representation in the ancient Greek city-states. A hive mind where everybody gets that one vote out of perhaps billions in a direct voting process on all sorts of random minor and major matters would be the ideal Greek democracy by default. (Okay, a hive mind where the male warriors get the one vote would be, but you get my drift.)
Timo Saloniemi
Timo Saloniemi
A direct democracy is.. Lunacy.. It would all go on emotion, and that would be bad! and minorities would be completly ignored, atleast in a represenative republic, there atleast listened to..
That's how I see things as well.
All member worlds must abide by Federation law, plus follow basic tenets such as one world government and no caste-based discrimination, but apart from that they are free to run their own local affairs however they choose.
True, we see the Federation President declaring martial law on Earth, but as has been pointed out, he has that right. The local government of United Earth (which was actually supposed to appear in the episode, but it got cut for time) can't override him.
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I guess it's the first part there that is problematic. What laws could the UFP have that the locals must respect? Vulcan has duels to death. Ardana has slavery. Kirk has no power over either member world, least of all as regards these specific customs. If the letter of UFP law is tailored not to offend these particular members, what does this do to the reputation of the organization that tends to frown on killing and freedom deprivation in public?
There might of course be separate laws for separate members at the federal level, so that Vulcans who keep love slaves get sent to Dr. Adams, and Ardanans who fight to death with cutting tools when high on zenite likewise get the neural neutralizer. But the reputation of the organization might be in jeopardy for that, too.
Timo Saloniemi
This exception proves the rule. It was authorized by the president and seen as a radical approach. This suggests to me that the show focuses on the Star Fleet chain of command, up to the Federation Council and President. It does not focus on the civilian leadership in other areas. It makes it feel like the UFP is all about Star Fleet. There may be some secretary of the treasury reporting to the president working with planet on the outer rim of the Federation manage local currencies linked to the Federation Credit, and this person may hardly ever think of Star Fleet.
But 24th century humanity is supposed to be evolved….so it just might work there
(How to run a direct democracy with a trillion or more people spread over 8000 light years is yet another issue of course)Similar threads
