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Spoilers Discovery and the Novelverse - TV show discussion thread

We've been through this before. TNG: "The Neutral Zone" established that the Romulans had been in isolation for 53 years, but then later episodes established things like the Romulan attacks on Khitomer and Narendra III, and so we basically had to retcon "The Neutral Zone" to mean that there had been no formal diplomatic contact between the governments, rather than no contact whatsoever.
 
Back to the issue of Discovery and Star Trek EU, is there any way to make the Star Trek Early Voyages comic book with Pike and company fit in with Discovery? Small things like Commander Robbins can be swept aside as maybe Number One's middle name or something, but it seems the big issue is that Pike's Early Voyages story had him regularly facing off against Klingons circa 2254, while Discovery says there's practically no contact between Starfleet and Klingons before 2256.

Could it still fit somehow? Classified isolated incidents?
Non-filmic sources going back several decades have postulated that there were indeed numerous encounters between the UFP and the Klingon Empire (even prior to ENT), including encounters between the U.S.S. Sentry and I.K.V. Devisor, as well as conflict involving the U.S.S. Ranger and the empire at Agbar IV, right around 2218. This dating was derived from an unaired line in the “Day of the Dove” script (“Fifty years — eyeball to eyeball with the Klingon Empire”), which is also consistent to within just a couple of years with Spock’s line in The Undiscovered Country regarding the Klingons (“[almost] seventy years of unremitting hostility”).

The dating of 2218 was also subsequently used in the first two editions of the Okudachron as a possible first-contact point between the UFP and Klingon Empire, but of course this was changed by “Broken Bow.” Very likely, before 2223, the Federation rarely encountered Klingons, but contacts might not always be hostile, while starting with the relations-breakdown in 2223 up through 2256 (and the Battle of the Binary Stars), all contacts, while still rare, were thereafter extremely hostile (which includes the Battle of Donatu V).
 
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We've been through this before. TNG: "The Neutral Zone" established that the Romulans had been in isolation for 53 years, but then later episodes established things like the Romulan attacks on Khitomer and Narendra III, and so we basically had to retcon "The Neutral Zone" to mean that there had been no formal diplomatic contact between the governments, rather than no contact whatsoever.
I also realized there had to have been enough contact for L'Rell (and presumably other Klingons) to learn and practice fluent English (which she is clearly stated to speak on Discovery). Most people aren't going to bother learning the language of people they will never encounter regularly.
 
I also realized there had to have been enough contact for L'Rell (and presumably other Klingons) to learn and practice fluent English (which she is clearly stated to speak on Discovery). Most people aren't going to bother learning the language of people they will never encounter regularly.

L'Rell is from a family of spymasters. They could very well gain enough data about English or Federation Standard from historical records and eavesdropping on unencrypted transmissions.
 
At this point we can assume Desperate Hours has been dropped in the wastebin by the show writers and isn't even soft canon anymore.
 
At this point we can assume Desperate Hours has been dropped in the wastebin by the show writers and isn't even soft canon anymore.

It never made sense to expect anything else. One of the producers actually said that it would only be "canon" until they decided to contradict it. Seriously, fans have got to stop obsessing over that silly little 5-letter word -- it deafens them to everything else that's said around the word.
 
It never made sense to expect anything else. One of the producers actually said that it would only be "canon" until they decided to contradict it. Seriously, fans have got to stop obsessing over that silly little 5-letter word -- it deafens them to everything else that's said around the word.
I hereby propose that every spinoff fiction in Star Trek is actually one of Barclay's holonovels. (Or Riker's :eek: )
 
I hereby propose that every spinoff fiction in Star Trek is actually one of Barclay's holonovels. (Or Riker's :eek: )

Roddenberry himself proposed in his TMP novelization that Star Trek had been an "inaccurately larger-than-life" 23rd-century dramatization of the Enterprise's "real" adventures, explaining all the changes in TMP by presenting it as a more accurate dramatization produced under Admiral Kirk's oversight. By the same token, tie-in stories could easily be historical fiction, imaginary adventures of real historical figures.
 
It never made sense to expect anything else. One of the producers actually said that it would only be "canon" until they decided to contradict it. Seriously, fans have got to stop obsessing over that silly little 5-letter word -- it deafens them to everything else that's said around the word.

Definitely the risk of reading tie-in fiction while the subject show is still airing, but damn, that's gotta be close to a record for how quickly a Trek book got tossed in the bin...
 
Definitely the risk of reading tie-in fiction while the subject show is still airing, but damn, that's gotta be close to a record for how quickly a Trek book got tossed in the bin...

As someone said above, the book was written while Fuller was in charge and he had said he was not going to use Pike and the Enterprise.

The new show runner decided he was going to.
 
I understand what happened, just said that was probably the quickest that a tie-in book had been trashed before...
 
Definitely the risk of reading tie-in fiction while the subject show is still airing, but damn, that's gotta be close to a record for how quickly a Trek book got tossed in the bin...

Not at all -- not even close. The whole reason the producers considered it important to work closely with Dave to keep the book consistent is that some of the earlier series' first novels were already obsolete before they even came out. Like the first original TNG novel, Diane Carey's Ghost Ship, which was based strictly on the writers' bible and "Farpoint" script, so that it included a lot of ideas that never made it onto the show or were immediately abandoned (like "Bill" Riker being prejudiced against Data). Or VGR: The Escape and several other early novels referring to the Doctor as Doc Zimmerman because the original plan was for him to adopt his creator's surname.

And those were far from the only ones. Because it takes so much longer to put out a novel than an episode, there were many Trek novels throughout the runs of TNG through ENT that were already contradicted before they were released.

And it's not being "tossed in the bin," because none of these books were ever meant to be canonical in the first place. All of this is equally imaginary, so it doesn't diminish the value of a story if it's inconsistent with a different made-up story. It doesn't make them garbage, so please don't use that phrasing.
 
Oh, nothing is canon anymore/everything is canon, now (see, it even applies to this sentence). Every X-Men movie picks a different set of previous X-Men movies to use as backstory. The "clean break" post-Disney Star Wars is constantly rifling through the EU for loose bits of lore to incorporate. It's a matter of taste, and the people whose tastes matter in this instance have changed, and I don't see any particular value-judgement or insult in saying it's pretty unlikely that's what's actually happening on Discovery is what was expected to happen when Desperate Hours, or even the entire idea of having Discovery tie-ins focus on backstory and not interstitial stories, was developed.

I know, we all put a lot of wishful thinking into early statements, looking for evidence that the stories we'd been enjoying wouldn't be superseded by ones we might not care for, but even with our rose-colored glasses I think we would've noticed if the secret, real message on the tie-in strategy was "Remember how the Klingons were banished from space at the end of Spock Must Die!, or how Voyager was consistent with Mosaic and Pathways, and then it wasn't? Our goal is to constantly work slightly ahead of the show, to give you that sense of narrative whiplash over and over again." That seems like the kind of vibe a bunch of people who read for fun would pick up on.

Now, I like subtext and being able to make connections and interpret and debate things, so I'm not thrilled when every movie, season, episode, book, comic, spin-off, cartoon, web-exclusive, bonus scene, reference book, or A.V. Club episode recap becomes a de facto remake we should enter into with the assumption that no prior knowledge stands and all bets are off (heck, if I heard the line right, the most recent episode of Discovery also retconned what cancer is. Weird flex, as the kids say), but it's definitely one way to work. Would I have been happier if, rather than aging up Pike to make him and Georgiou Academy buddies so he'd known something was wrong, he'd say something about how dedicated she was to protecting innocents on Sirsa III and that doesn't seem to fit with her joining up with Starfleet's undeniably deniable black ops organization? Sure, since my knowing more (admittedly unnecessary) detail about what he was talking about would lend depth and shading to the moment, rather than "Lawl, binge-drinking nerds who work hard and play harder." I'd also be happier if Saru and Burnham's odd-couple, Spock-and-McCoy-plus-sibling-rivalry dynamic had lasted more than one episode and two books, or, indeed, if they had a dynamic at all at this point, rather than the Discovery crew's flat and consistent mutual-admiration-society thing. Heck, I'd be happier if spies (or formerly-unofficial borderline-criminal cabals that are now inexplicably spies) didn't wear official spy insignia, or carry it with them while they were under cover. It'd also be nice if the episodes weren't plotted like movie trailers, all high points with no connective tissue or structural support. My kingdom for a poker or rec-room scene.

There'd be a lot to be disappointed about in Discovery season two even if it was making more effort to pander to me, specifically.
 
Roddenberry himself proposed in his TMP novelization that Star Trek had been an "inaccurately larger-than-life" 23rd-century dramatization of the Enterprise's "real" adventures, explaining all the changes in TMP by presenting it as a more accurate dramatization produced under Admiral Kirk's oversight. By the same token, tie-in stories could easily be historical fiction, imaginary adventures of real historical figures.

Treating tie-ins as "historical fiction" has been my personal approach for a long time now, particularly as a reader. It keeps the madness at bay. :D
 
I mean, I’ve always just kinda rolled with “if there’s a major contradiction with canon, it’s from a similar but separate parallel timeline” and gone from there. Plenty of eighties era Trek books are incompatible with things made canon in TNG and on, that doesn’t make them any less entertaining as Star Trek stories. I’m more than willing to apply the same reasoning to novels that Discovery and subsequent shows contradict.

They’re still good stories, and still good Star Trek stories. Why stress?
 
Agree, it's never bothered me that much. I enjoy the characters and the adventures; I don't spend a lot of time trying to map them out and locate every second of the chronology...
 
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