Was it right from Janeway to decide for Seven Of Nine?

[TigerCat]

Then she (and the rest of Federation and their allies') is lucky that Seven never wanted to leave again...

In reality, Seven would find herself the unfortunate victim of an exploding shuttle or a botched "whoops, we lost electricity there for a bit" transportation *after* she was allowed to leave, as it was her right. For that matter had Seven really wanted to, she could have assimilated the entire crew and simply flew Voyager towards the Borg. Janeway was damn lucky Seven got on with the program within an episode or two.

Like you said, Future Kim, Chakotay and that lady that was with them were charged with treason on their intent but no one threw them in jail and tossed away the key *before* they set out to do anything, which is what Janeway would have to do if she truly wanted to stop Seven from leaving.

 

[at Quark's]

Then she (and the rest of Federation and their allies') is lucky that Seven never wanted to leave again...

It's one of those examples where Janeway takes a big gamble, and of course is justified in the end (see also the thread "why is Janeway is hated so much"). Though she likely was right with her reply

SEVEN: If at that time we choose to return to the Collective, will you permit it?
JANEWAY: I don't think you'll want to do that.
SEVEN: You would deny us the choice as you deny us now.

it was still a big gamble. She couldn't guarantee 7 wouldn't choose to go back after all. Some people choose to go back to destructive cults even after being "deprogrammed".

See also this exchange from Dark Frontier, when 7 really announces it:

JANEWAY: Seven, keep moving!
SEVEN: No. I wish to stay. I intend to rejoin the Collective.
JANEWAY: I can't let you do that.
SEVEN: You have no choice.
JANEWAY: Keep moving. That's an order.

could be indicative that Janeway never seriously considered the possibility 7 would want to return one day. Then again, of course it's also possible Janeway wouldn't be convinced in 5 seconds, but only after thorough discussions with her and she is absolutely certain 7 knows what she is choosing and is not being influenced/pressured, etc.

But just perhaps, I'm analysing some entertainment show way too close, something that was never intended to hold up under this kind of scrutiny

In reality, Seven would find herself the unfortunate victim of an exploding shuttle or a botched "whoops, we lost electricity there for a bit" transportation *after* she was allowed to leave, as it was her right.
....
Like you said, Future Kim, Chakotay and that lady that was with them were charged with treason on their intent but no one threw them in jail and tossed away the key *before* they set out to do anything, which is what Janeway would have to do if she truly wanted to stop Seven from leaving.

Technically, she didn't need 7 to stop from leaving, just make sure she would never actually rejoin with the Borg ...which would probably lead to the kind of ghoulish scenario you describe. As for Future Kim/Chakotay, what would have happened to them, if they had openly declared their intention to steal that temporal transmitter and the Defiant if Starfleet didn't hand these over to them, but before actually doing so?

 

[TigerCat]

It's one of those examples where Janeway takes a big gamble, and of course is justified in the end (see also the thread "why is Janeway is hated so much"). Though she likely was right with her reply
it was still a big gamble. She couldn't guarantee 7 wouldn't choose to go back after all. Some people choose to go back to destructive cults even after being "deprogrammed".

Truthfully, that's why I love Janeway. She takes the big risks and even if/when they go bad, she sticks with them rather than panicking. I admire her loyalty and if I had to be stuck in the DQ, I'd definitely prefer to be on her good side.

About the risks being justified, well, that's part of the show being seen from Voyager's view. Had we the Borg, for instance, as heroes, I assure you, things would be very different.

Then again, of course it's also possible Janeway wouldn't be convinced in 5 seconds, but only after thorough discussions with her and she is absolutely certain 7 knows what she is choosing and is not being influenced/pressured, etc.

Janeway allowed to Doctor to leave Voyager in Muse and he's a holoprogram that is the property of Starfleet. Does that mean that Starfleet Property has more rights than Seven who isn't even Starfleet personnel? With that in mind, I highly doubt Janeway wouldn't be talked into letting Seven go (again, assuming Seven asked and not just left).
Don't get me wrong, I understand why Janeway refused both times, but both times she wrong to force her will on Seven.

Technically, she didn't need 7 to stop from leaving, just make sure she would never actually rejoin with the Borg ...which would probably lead to the kind of ghoulish scenario you describe.

For argument's sake, say Seven didn't announce her plans. Wasn't she allowed to take a shuttle at any point during her stay on Voyager and simply plot a different course? Or claim she just wanted to leave and head straight for Borg space after she put enough distance between her and Voyager? Because if she isn't, then how is Voyager better than the Borg if they force someone to stay and obey them?

As for Future Kim/Chakotay, what would have happened to them, if they had openly declared their intention to steal that temporal transmitter and the Defiant if Starfleet didn't hand these over to them, but before actually doing so?

Unless the law has changed in the 24th century, it's illegal to arrest someone on an intent they have but haven't actually done anything yet. Future Kim/Chakotay were free to steal the ship and try to do what they did and *then* they were chased.

In the finale, Admiral Janeway lied her way to the necessary equipment and *then* Future Kim chased her. Notice how he doesn't actually shoot to kill her shuttle/ship (she's in more danger by the Klingon chasing her) but he tries to talk her out of it and she was in the middle of committing a crime. Are you telling me, he couldn't bring her smaller ship down if he wanted to?

But just perhaps, I'm analysing some entertainment show way too close, something that was never intended to hold up under this kind of scrutiny

We all do, that's part of why this and similar sites are still alive

 

[at Quark's]

Unless the law has changed in the 24th century, it's illegal to arrest someone on an intent they have but haven't actually done anything yet. Future Kim/Chakotay were free to steal the ship and try to do what they did and *then* they were chased."

I'm not saying they should be arrested before they commit the crime. But certainly they would be held under closer scrutiny than before, and the objects that they wanted to steal protected better than before, if security was checked after their statement and found somewhat lacking. In short, additional measures would be take to prevent that theft, without curtailing Chakotay's and Kim's freedom, but still.

In the case of 7, there really aren't that many options that do not limit her freedoms to some extent and still can make sure she doesn't actually rejoin the collective.

The problem is in the nature of the Borg. There simply is no 'I want to rejoin my people, but I'll still never betray you!' option. If that option were there, 7 (or anyone) might just allowed to do so, if Janeway believed them and it was what they sincerely wished. But join the Borg, you automatically betray the Federation by giving them any information you have -even the information you only knew subconsciously- which they might use against the Federation. There is nothing in between.

 

[Guy Gardener]

I wouldn't have let Seven go until she had been completely striped of nanoprobes, even though she's smart enough to make new ones from scratch, so you'd have to alter her memories so that she can't do that, and if you're willing to alter her brain a little bit, why not a lot.

Put the admiral's niece in stasis and she is some other's buggers problem in 60 years.

 

[JirinPanthosa]

If a child was kidnapped kept in a room for 15 years, then rescued, and said she wanted to go back to the kidnapper, would it be ethical to send her back? Of course not. Janeway didn't decide for Seven, she realized Seven was not capable of making her own decision at the time and brought her to a state where she *could* make her own decision.

 

[cosmic mouse]

If a child was kidnapped kept in a room for 15 years, then rescued, and said she wanted to go back to the kidnapper, would it be ethical to send her back? Of course not. Janeway didn't decide for Seven, she realized Seven was not capable of making her own decision at the time and brought her to a state where she *could* make her own decision.

This. Precisely. Simple as that.

 

[Guy Gardener]

Anika's IQ was tripled, had hundreds of terabytes of information stapled to her brain, and enforced with adamantium governing protocols on how to process that information politically.

It's a lie to say that this is the same person, or that that 8 year old Anika could ever grow up to be this Borg.

Death of personality.

Replaced by a giant inhuman hulk.

 

[TigerCat]

If a child was kidnapped kept in a room for 15 years, then rescued, and said she wanted to go back to the kidnapper, would it be ethical to send her back? Of course not. Janeway didn't decide for Seven, she realized Seven was not capable of making her own decision at the time and brought her to a state where she *could* make her own decision.

And how is imprisoning this child and forcing her to use her knowledge to work with you any better? Are you telling me that had Seven not gotten on with the program, she would be given any kind of freedom aboard Voyager?

Besides, like atQuark's said above, in Dark Frontier when Seven wished to leave again, Janeway stopped her. Does that mean she still wasn't capable of making her own decisions if she wanted to leave but was capable if she wanted to stay?

 

[chris of nine]

Mother Janeway is protecting her adoptive daughter. I’m with Janeway on that.

Is there a crew member to which Janeway would not be a Momma Bear?

 

[TigerCat]

So do I, but I would have preferred a longer scene where Janeway explains why she won't allow it and Seven fully understands it, instead of
Seven: I want to leave
Janeway: No, you can't. End of story.

 

[cosmic mouse]

And how is imprisoning this child and forcing her to use her knowledge to work with you any better? Are you telling me that had Seven not gotten on with the program, she would be given any kind of freedom aboard Voyager?

Besides, like atQuark's said above, in Dark Frontier when Seven wished to leave again, Janeway stopped her. Does that mean she still wasn't capable of making her own decisions if she wanted to leave but was capable if she wanted to stay?

She wasn't "forced" to do anything other than remain on the ship (which was in her own best interest since being dropped off on a random class M planet alone and with no other support mechanism is borderline crazy). She had the option of assisting the crew (i.e. giving back to the society within the ship) or remaining in isolation in cargo bay 2.
What she wouldn't be subject to is: the mass "killing" of other species via assimilation and the loss of any sort of conscious personal decision making capabilities akin to living as a cog in the proverbial machine (and not unlike some regimes on this planet from which many private citizens attempt to escape from).
When a person is detoxing from heroin and asks for a "sniff" to ease the pain you don't give it to them. It's not in their best interest and they, in their present state, are not capable of acting in their own best interest (i.e. making rational choices).

 

[TigerCat]

She had the option of assisting the crew (i.e. giving back to the society within the ship) or remaining in isolation in cargo bay 2.

So, essentially, she would either be confined aka jailed or assist her captors.

She wasn't "forced" to do anything other than remain on the ship (which was in her own best interest since being dropped off on a random class M planet alone and with no other support mechanism is borderline crazy)

Be dropped off in a planet and wait for rescue by the Borg, which is exactly what she wanted. Whether the Borg would show up or not, is a whole different can of worms. They're not exactly the kind to look for survivors, from what we've seen.

What she wouldn't be subject to is: the mass "killing" of other species via assimilation and the loss of any sort of conscious personal decision making capabilities akin to living as a cog in the proverbial machine

But she lost the right to make personal decisions if those decisions included her leaving the ship, as we saw. Being allowed to decide what to eat or which catsuit to wear each day, is a small gain if she still loses her freedom.
About the mass killing, Voyager left dead in their wake too. It's a natural, and highly unfortunate, part of engaging in a fight.
To make a crazy claim, it could be argued that being assimilated is a better option too, since the implants can be removed later (the Doctor became quite adept to it, too). You can't come back from the dead, so, if one *has* to happen, which is worse?

When a person is detoxing from heroin and asks for a "sniff" to ease the pain you don't give it to them. It's not in their best interest and they, in their present state, are not capable of acting in their own best interest (i.e. making rational choices).

Detox clinics either require voluntary admission or admission from a legal guardian, parent or the law. They don't grab random people from the street and forcibly detox them.
Seven didn't ask to be rescued from the Borg, nor did the Borg hand her over for disassimilation, unless I blinked and missed it.

Also, when a person has detoxed, they still have the freedom of choice to find and buy heroin. Their loved ones may refuse them, but they still can open the door and walk away.
When Seven had been deprogrammed, she wished (for all the wrong reasons, granted) to go back. She wasn't allowed to and had she tried to anyway, Janeway would have her transported back to Voyager against her will.

At the end of the day, it's all a matter of perspective. Through the show's view Seven was rescued and lived happily ever after. In a different view, Seven left the prison of the Borg and was taken to a different kind of prison.

Rereading this thread, I began wondering something else. Will she ever be allowed to leave Earth and/or Starfleet? What if after they return to Earth, for any reason, Seven decides humanity is overrated or she simply dislikes it and wants to head back to the Delta Quandrant or finds a random Borg cube and wants to rejoin the Collective. Will she be allowed to or has she become property of Starfleet?

 

[cosmic mouse]

Detox clinics either require voluntary admission or admission from a legal guardian, parent or the law. They don't grab random people from the street and forcibly detox them.

Which is not what happened in the series either.

 

[TigerCat]

Which is not what happened in the series either.

Isn't it? Chakotay and the Doctor disabled her connection to the Cube and Voyager ran away from the Borg (with Kes' assistance if I remember correctly). They could have left Seven in a planet (not to mention simply transport her back to the Cube) before she even woke up.
Instead Janeway chose to keep her, ordered the Doctor to begin stripping her implants and then overrode Seven's objections in order to begin restoring her human body. At which point did Seven say she wished for any of it to happen?

 

[cosmic mouse]

Isn't it? Chakotay and the Doctor disabled her connection to the Cube and Voyager ran away from the Borg (with Kes' assistance if I remember correctly).

No, it isn't the same thing. Seven wound up on VOY through a combination of events that did not involve someone forcibly taking her away from the Collective for the express reason of severing her from her former family/environment.
Chakotay et al disabled the connection for reasons of their own that didn't have anything to do with Seven as an individual.

 

[TigerCat]

No, it isn't the same thing. Seven wound up on VOY through a combination of events that did not involve someone forcibly taking her away from the Collective for the express reason of severing her from her former family/environment.
Chakotay et al disabled the connection for reasons of their own that didn't have anything to do with Seven as an individual.

Chakotay at all disabled the connection to save themselves and the ship, which is perfectly fine. However Seven could have been returned to the Collective afterwards, instead of being detained on Voyager and forcibly "detoxing".

Again, when did Seven say she wished to join Voyager, strip off her Borg implants and restore her humanity? Never. Instead both times she wishes to rejoin the Borg collective, both before and after "detoxing" she's shut down.

 

[suarezguy]

Seven didn't ask to be rescued from the Borg, nor did the Borg hand her over for disassimilation, unless I blinked and missed it.

They/she did break the terms of her being on Voyager, tried to take over the ship and have all its people assimilated against the agreement, her being imprisoned for that unless she helps the crew seems a foreseeable, understandable, reasonable consequence to the action.

 

[TigerCat]

They/she did break the terms of her being on Voyager, tried to take over the ship and have all its people assimilated against the agreement, her being imprisoned for that unless she helps the crew seems a foreseeable, understandable, reasonable consequence to the action.

You misunderstand me. Had she been imprisoned until she agreed to assist Voyager of her own volition would be perfectly fine with me. However that's not what happened

She was unconscious when one of her implants began acting up and when that was fixed, the Doctor under Janeway's orders began stripping Seven's Borg implants away despite her objections. Seven had no choice (unlike the Borg children later).

That is what I disagree with.

 

[Voth commando1]

Seven was assimilated as a child and spent most of her life up to that point as a borg drone, once she was freed, she lacked the necessary skills and experience to integrate with the rest of the crew or go off on her own. Janeway became her de facto guardian.