I hope so. The marina trench of fanwankery, that story.
Spoilers Star Trek: Discovery 2x03 - "Point of Light"
- Thread starter Commander Richard
- Start date
If only DS9 had done the obvious thing in Trials and Tribble-ations and had Worf switch to TOS Klingon makeup when they went back to the 23rd century with no one commenting upon it. But they really wanted to hang a lampshade with O'Brien and Bashir's dialogue, and the bell couldn't have been unrung - setting up for the Augment trilogy.
If the writers are good enough at crafting a compelling story the Augment Virus shouldn't be a problem for them to deal with as a passing reference or even an occasional plot point. It's not that hard to acknowledge that they exist but still keep head ridges on your lead Klingon characters. It's Star Trek so there are creative ways to explain everything.
If you know what you're doing.
If you know what you're doing.
In all seriousness, even though I was humoring it upthread, I'll be surprised if they bring up the Augment Virus or Smooth-Headed Klingons. That will be the surprise to me, not the other way around.
Kurtzman feels that it's necessary to explain and address why Spock and Sarek never mention Michael; if he thinks that is important enough to explain, of course the Augment Virus situation is going to get addressed at some point.
You are a very optimistic person.
Actually I thought DS9 handled it perfectly, have a little joke at the fans' expense who had been speculating about it for years, and leave it at that. They even got O'Brien and Bashir to guess common fan theories.
But of course this is Star Trek, so we couldn't leave well enough alone, and Augment was born.
The "saving" grace here is that DSC's MO is that it's not interested in how TOS looked. The Starfleet ships look like a cross between the Kelvin Films and TOS Films. Except the Enterprise, which looks like a cross between ENT and TMP with some Kelvin thrown in. Even the "TOS" Uniforms in DSC are just Disco Uniforms re-colored. So why would they make an exception for TOS Klingons?
The entire approach DSC has taken up to this point suggests they won't go for the TOS look, unless it's heavily modified or has already been heavily modified. Even the D7. When I saw the holo-projection in this episode: my first thought was the opening scene in TMP (because regardless of what anyone thinks of the movie, how can you forget that scene?), not anything from TOS.
ENT tried to show how everything led into eventually looking like TOS, but it seems like DSC's approach and ENT's approach are completely different. Rick Berman and Alex Kurtzman's approaches are completely different. Kurtzman feels at liberty to change things because of the precedent set by the 2009 film and by Fuller at the beginning of DSC. Berman didn't feel like he had that liberty.
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"The WONKA-HATER...can hate sideways, and slantways, and longways, and backways, and squareways, and frontways, and any other ways that you can think of."
-MMoM
And it's taken until 2018 for a Trek series to show a proper (no alien bodyswapping) gay couple. They may have gotten GoT-like with the Klingon gore, but they are NOT gonna show or even hint at kids of under 12 boffing.
I'll admit you might get a "first kiss" scenario with Burnham taunting Spock about it later. But personally I feel it's more likely she deliberately revealed a secret he had confided in her (probably involving his emotions) to other Vulcan kids, leading to the bullying he received. That would shatter his trust in her equally well.
The Augment Virus is likely to be addressed at some point because Kurtzman and the rest of the DSC team care about the narrative Canon of the Trek franchise (despite fan assertions to the contrary).
I think it would be better if they addressed it in an episode of Short Treks.
In Discovery itself, even on the hair issue, all we got was, "I heard the Klingons are growing their hair again." I can't see them stopping an entire ongoing story to explain Klingon foreheads and the Augment virus for an entire episode or an entire arc. Even in the Mirror Universe, they were real quick and short to sum up everything about the Defiant. "It came from the future into our universe 100 years ago, we know all about your Federation." So we might get a line or two explaining it and that's it. The attitude was, "Yeah, yeah, let's just get this out of the way. Moving right along... "
Make a Klingon word for the Augments (probably already one), have a one line reference to a Klingon conflict elsewhere (not with the Federation), and have them be “shock troops” that acquit themselves well enough that they become the “advance forces” for a while. We don’t have to see much, if any of it. Maybe one officer on a screen reporting from the front.
I’m sure a proper story teller could make something like this work far better than me, though.
I’m sure a proper story teller could make something like this work far better than me, though.
^ There's a difference between the things you're talking about and the Augment situation, because the latter is massively significant in terms of the Trek franchise as a whole.
To continue the storylines of Tyler, L'Rell, and Mirror-Georgiou from where they left off at the end of the previous season?
But that's probably exactly what will come next. It's a serialized show. Just wait for the next episode.
I mean, this stuck out to me as well, but I can totally understand Tilly taking the attitude: "How about you get out of me first, and then we'll talk."
I'm thinking that these creatures inhabit the mycelial network, and what they want will be for Discovery to stop trampling all over their carefully-maintained backyard hedges with their spore drive. (Anyone else wondering if they might even be related to the "sporocystian" Nacene, the species of the Caretaker, who transported Voyager to the Delta Quadrant?)
Oh boy.
"As you were. To break this information down succinctly..."
First, people were upset that "Broken Bow" (ENT) showed first contact with the Klingons in 2151, because the Okuda Chronology had posited it took place in 2218, based on a cut line from an early draft of "Day Of The Dove" (TOS) that implied it had taken place fifty years prior—the very same line that stated the Federation had always managed to avoid outright war with them, BTW—even though it was never in the episode as filmed and aired, and even though Picard said it took place "centuries ago" onscreen in "First Contact" (TNG).
One of the Vulcan overseers there also refers to Klingon ships as "warbirds"; people were upset because this had only been used in reference to Romulan ships before (nevermind that "bird of prey" was too, until it wasn't). They 'corrected' themselves in "Sleeping Dogs" (ENT) and used "birds of prey"; some people were then upset that this messed with behind-the-scenes intent from "The Enterprise Incident" (TOS) and STIII, to the effect that the Klingons had a military alliance with the Romulans in the 2260s, the theory being that Klingons received birds-of-prey with cloaks in exchange for their D-7s—even though this was never stated onscreen in either the episode (where the Rommies are simply said to now be using a Klingon design without further explanation) or the film (where no mention whatsoever is made of Romulans).
It was really one tempest in a teacup after another, all based on fan preconceptions that weren't actually tied to the canon. (In fairness, the same could have been said of the battlecruiser in "Unexpected" [ENT], at the time. And possibly still, since DSC has yet to establish that this new D-7 design is of an entirely new lineage without precursors, rather than the revival of a past one.)
Same here, although I remain optimistic. I didn't really find "Brother" all that impressive, but these last two I very much did. Here's hoping...
Yes, exactly, I picked up on that too.
Yes.
She is too ashamed of whatever it is, and Amanda isn't exactly acting supportive.
I wonder if Michael might have told Spock that Sarek didn't love him and thought he was "so human" that he preferred an actual human child to him? She could have said she saw it in Sarek's mind when they melded. Or something like that.
We know from "Sarek" (TNG) that his greatest remaining regret at that point was that he was never able to convey to Spock and Amanda how much he loved them. Michael could have taken advantage of her intimate knowledge that Sarek wouldn't be able to refute her lie. And we know from TFF that a belief his father rejected him at birth was Spock's deepest "secret pain," one that he was unable to shake in spite of having come to terms with it since last seeing Sybok.
Burnham says she "won't give up on" Spock, and "will find him," to which Amanda replies: "No. I will."
Quite so. By 2369, the story of Kahless cutting off his hair to forge the first bat'leth is claimed only to be known to the high clerics of Boreth, per "Rightful Heir" (TNG). The following year, we find Kang lamenting in "Blood Oath" (DS9) that "the old Klingon ways are passing." And in "Judgment" (ENT), Kolos tells Archer from the standpoint of 2152 that, in terms of his lifetime, the warrior caste has only come to dominate Klingon society over the preceding twenty to fifty years. (But then, how long are Klingon years?) So while the custom may have ancient roots (no pun intended), it needn't be one that was ever universally practiced, nor even particularly widespread outside of the period leading up to DSC.
Per the Okudas' revised Star Trek Chronology, page 290:
At the time the episode was written, this was apparently intended to lead to the introduction of the Borg in Star Trek: The Next Generation's second season. The Borg connection was dropped before "Q Who?" (TNG) was written, and the truth about the parasites remains a mystery.
Same here!
I only recall T'Kuvma telling Voq in "The Vulcan Hello" (DSC) that "some may see the color of your skin as nature's mistake." When was it addressed again before now? (I don't have the blu-rays, so it might have been in one of the deleted scenes?)
Yes, and I hope that angle goes even further from here. Nice symmetry with "The Menagerie" (TOS).
But that was exactly the point. They were asking the same question we were. They all want to know what the hell is up with Spock, just like we do.
It was a B-plot in terms of this episode, but it's a major arc in terms of the season (and an important one to the premise of the show overall).
No, it isn't. Georgiou's cover story is that she's a "Starfleet security consultant." (I hear echoes of Scotty mocking them as "private security" in Into Darkness.) And Tyler says at the end: "This isn't your everyday Federation espionage...what kind of organization could pull that off?"
Which is similar to how they orchestrated Phlox's kidnapping so that he could help the Klingons treat the Augment virus in "Affliction"/"Divergence" (ENT), in order to "stabilize" the Empire.
In what way, specifically? It hasn't been addressed directly, although there have been a few vague and oblique potential references...
They might be among those referred to by T'Kuvma in "Battle At The Binary Stars" (DSC) as "discarded," yet not accepted even by him, as Voq was, because they did not "remain Klingon" by his standards of "purity." It would match up with Laneth saying they would be "outcasts" with "no place in the Empire" in "Divergence" (ENT).
And I still think the virus might have provided a starting point for Voq's transformation, one of the things L'Rell told him that House Mókai would "expose" him to in "The Butcher's Knife Cares Not For The Lamb's Cry" (DSC), with the DNA resequencing and surgery then completing the physical process, and the transfer of Tyler's consciousness effected by the "mind-sifter or mind-ripper" Kor uses on Spock in "Errand Of Mercy" (TOS).
More definitely, but less prominently, it was said that there was graffiti on the wall of the tavern in "Will You Take My Hand?" (DSC) that translated to: "Your mother has a flat forehead!"
In the original timeline of "Yesteryear" (TAS), I-Chaya lived. In the revised timeline after Spock went back to save his childhood self, I-Chaya died from a Le-matya attack on Vulcan's Forge.
I still think that was a "meta" joke to rile us...
I WENT ON THE STAGE ONE DAY, AND THEY WERE ALL READY AND WAITING FOR ME, BECAUSE THEY KNEW I WAS REALLY EXHAUSTED FROM SOME LONG RE-WRITE SESSIONS. AS SOON AS I WALKED UP TO THE SET, BILL AND LEONARD BLEW A SCENE, BUT THEY DID IT ON PURPOSE AND BEGAN ARGUING VERY VIOLENTLY. BILL WAS SHOUTING AT THE TOP OF HIS VOICE, "LEONARD! WHAT DO YOU MEAN SAYING THIS IS A D-7 KLINGON SHIP! IT'S A D-6!" LEONARD SHOUTED BACK, "NO, YOU IDIOT, THE D-6 HAS FOUR DOORS OVER HERE AND THE D-7 ONLY HAS TWO!" BILL IMMEDIATELY SHOUTED BACK, "NO, NO, NO—IT'S THE OTHER WAY AROUND. YOU'VE GOT IT ALL WRONG."
WHILE ALL OF THIS IS GOING ON, I'M STANDING THERE, BEGINNING TO GET FRUSTRATED, WATCHING THE MINUTES TICK BY AND MENTALLY COUNTING THE MONEY WE'RE LOSING IN EXPENSIVE CREW TIME, BECAUSE THE CAMERAS AREN'T ROLLING. AND AS THE ARGUMENT CONTINUED, I'M THINKING TO MYSELF, "WHAT ARE THEY TALKING ABOUT? THEY'VE GONE TOO FAR!" THEN I BEGAN THINKING THAT I SHOULD REMEMBER WHICH IS THE D-6 OR THE D-7. FINALLY I COULDN'T STAND IT ANY MORE, AND SO I WALKED IN BETWEEN THEM AND SAID, "COME ON, FELLOWS, IT REALLY DOESN'T MATTER. LET'S GET ON WITH THE SCENE." THEN THE WHOLE CREW BROKE UP LAUGHING. THIS WAS THEIR WAY OF SAYING TO ME, "HEY, TIME IS NOT THAT SERIOUS. RELAX A LITTLE."
-Gene Roddenberry in The Making Of Star Trek
Again, thus far it seems to me they might be believed at this time to be a Blackwater-esque security contractor. But we'll see how things develop.
In Deep Space Nine, where they were introduced. (Not literally everyone, of course—certainly not Our Man Bashir™, for instance—but Starfleet Command and the Federation Council did.)
"Inquisition" (DS9):
SISKO: There's no record of a Deputy Director Sloan anywhere in Starfleet. And as for Section 31, that's a little more complicated. Starfleet Command doesn't acknowledge its existence, but they don't deny it either. They simply said they'd look into it and get back to me.
BASHIR: When?
SISKO: They didn't say.
KIRA: That sounds like a cover up to me.
BASHIR: I can't believe the Federation condones this kind of activity.
ODO: Personally, I find it hard to believe they wouldn't. Every other great power has a unit like Section 31. The Romulans have the Tal Shiar. The Cardassians had the Obsidian Order.
BASHIR: But what does that say about us? When push comes to shove, are we willing to sacrifice our principles in order to survive?
SISKO: I wish I had an answer for you, Doctor.
"The Dogs Of War" (DS9):
BASHIR: You were deliberately infected.
ODO: By whom?
BASHIR: Section 31. They used you as a carrier, hoping you would pass on the disease to the Founders. I'm sure you were never meant to develop symptoms, but...
ODO: I don't care whether they meant to kill me or not! The reality is, the Federation set out to destroy my people.
BASHIR: Section 31 aren't part of the Federation. They're a rogue organization that...
ODO: Don't split hairs with me, Doctor! They used me as an instrument to try to commit genocide. Now, we may be at war with the Founders, but that's no excuse.
BASHIR: I completely agree.
ODO: And what does Starfleet intend to do about it?
SISKO: Federation Council considered giving the Founders the cure, then they decided against it.
ODO: Then they're abetting genocide.
SISKO: I don't condone what Section 31 did, but the Founders started this war, not us. Giving them the cure would strengthen their hand. We can't do that, not when there are still millions of men and women out there putting their lives on the line every day.
ODO: Well, I can see there's no point protesting. The decision's been made.
SISKO: Odo, I wish I didn't have to say this, but I need to know you're not going to take matters into your own hands.
ODO: You have my word.
SISKO: That's all I needed to hear.
ODO: Interesting, isn't it? The Federation claims to abhor Section 31's tactics, but when they need the dirty work done, they look the other way. It's a tidy little arrangement, wouldn't you say?
The Klingon War never happened in the Kelvin Timeline. (At least not by the point of Into Darkness.)
Whatever the significance of the "angels" turns out to be—and I bet they won't actually turn out be angels—it will likely be resolved by the end of this season. Why would Spock mention it all those years later?
What exactly is worthy of mockery there? The idea that variable geometry warp nacelles were a new development introduced with the Intrepid class appears nowhere onscreen in VGR. (Even the associated production materials only said that particular configuration was new.) And this is well before the 2311 Treaty of Algeron that prohibited the use of cloaking technology aboard Starfleet vessels per "The Pegasus" (TNG) and "These Are The Voyages..." (ENT). Besides, Section 31 wouldn't care about that, anyway.
And please do not try to invoke "Balance Of Terror" (TOS), which has already been retconned since long before DSC. Just apply the same handwave the Okudas' Chronology gave waaaay back in 1991 for the "firing while cloaked" thing in TUC:
This development raises the question of why Klingon spacecraft are still generally unable to use their weapons while cloaked in Star Trek: The Next Generation-era episodes. The real reason, of course, is that Next Generation writers were not aware of this new "development" during the first four seasons of that show, before Star Trek VI was written. We imagine that cloaking technology, like present day "stealth" technology, is a constantly evolving race between the designers of cloaking devices and the folks who design sensors. Even though this "improved" ship could evade detection while firing, one might assume that improved sensor designs would later render this development ineffective, at least until the next advance in cloaking technology. In fact, Kirk's use of plasma sensors on photon torpedoes in Star Trek VI would seem to do just that.We see this process unfolding in ENT ("Broken Bow"; "Shockwave"; "Minefield"), in DSC ("The Vulcan Hello"; "Into The Forest I Go"), in TOS ("Balance Of Terror"; "The Enterprise Incident"), into the movies (TSFS; TUC), and beyond ("Redemption II" [TNG]; "Prophecy" [VGR]).
But that was merely a gaffe, too. Mike Sussman thought they'd be re-using Greg Jein's D-7 model from "Trials And Tribble-ations" (DS9), which as I know I've pointed out to you before is where the term was actually first used onscreen. Paris says "they were retired decades ago" in "Prophecy" (VGR). K't'ingas obviously weren't.
(Nevertheless, we now have a nice little tradition in Trek of each and every ship referred to as a D-7 being at least slightly different from any other! Shatner and Nimoy's gag lives on in perpetuity! LONG LIVE THE GAG!)
Except when it's instead Enterprise-class, as in TWOK!
-MMoM
Don't want to make your life more complicated or anything but have you thought of having a thread dedicated to answering these types of questions? Seems a shame to just post here as the info gets buried in replies.
I agree insofar that it was the ultimate low point of the franchise
^ Klingon Augments were at the forefront of the Empire for at least 5 years, which, like that storyline development or not, is very significant in terms of the franchise's history as a whole.
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