Spoilers Star Trek: Discovery 2x03 - "Point of Light"

[Rahul]

Well, I don't follow Mechanoid's logic that it's part of a case he's making for cancellation, and I suspect he's probably got ruder motives for his comment about Tilly, but I did laugh that Tilly stopped for almost a minute to talk to her little 'shroom friend while everyone else kept running and then she suddenly burst past them all to win at the end while setting her personal best time. She didn't even do the Road Runner blur of spinning legs or leave a puff of smoke or anything. Of course, she has the spores in her, so maybe she just spore drived it to the end. But nothing to get up at arms about, just a funny little moment.

Actually, the way I interpreted these scenes, where that her conversations with her ghost-friend took entirely place in her head - and thus took less time than the actual screen-time - because after every incidents, no time had passed to anyone else. It looked like when she was sitting in the Captains chair - after she was already talking a while with her ghost - when she got louder it was actually the first time the other characters heard her (aka - the first time she really had "said" something), wheras before, she just looked distracted.

 

[Gepard]

makes the universe seem small, because logically speaking an area of known space with trillions/quadrillions of inhabitants (at minimum) shouldn't have the same relatively small set of characters keep popping up again and again.

Never forget that Anakin Skywalker built C-3P0.

He. Built. C-3P0.

 

[Lord Garth]

I don't see Empress Georgiou as SuperHitler. I'm not sure how anyone can. She was an absolute monarch from a culture that had always supported that system. She was raised in it. The odds were not very high she would suddenly support representational government and equal rights for all sentient species, especially the tasty ones or those who had foolishly resisted her government's inherent right to rule the Galaxy.

Hitler or any of the other great killers of the modern world knew better, even a hereditary monarch + genocidal maniac like King Leopold of Belgium. They might believe their own crap, but they certainly could have had access to differing views, and examples of other nations surviving without succuming to aggression and racial superiority.

Mirror Georgiou has a lot of adapting to do. She might never completely succeed in that, and she probably doesn't want to, but the fact she didn't kill herself is a pretty good sign she's resigned, for now at least, to living in this universe and making a go of it.

Thanks for saying something. I've spent the last 10 minutes at a loss of words, not knowing what to say at all.

Other than this: I think Godwin's Law needs to make a comeback. Seriously.

 

[Kemaiku]

Oh and *everyone* not only knows Section 31 exists but the "Black badges" brigade is an active topic of conversation in the fleet?

When the fuck did everyone not only know they had an illegal paramilitary facist movement in Starfleet but just accept it?

Shitting on Spock's entire backstory is marginally less fucked up than that.

 

[eschaton]

Never forget that Anakin Skywalker built C-3P0.

He. Built. C-3P0.

I'm not saying other fictional universes don't do it too. Star Wars is in many ways even worse when it comes to scope. Though considering the themes of the universe (a powerful few having effective magical powers, a focus on "destiny" rather than free will) it's a bit more excusable than Trek, where protagonists are generally depicted not as mythic heroes, but as normal, albeit unusually competent, professionals.

 

[Locutus of Bored]

Here's a Section 31 Question...

Spoiler

I wonder what Tyler can bring to the table? He can speak the language and knows what Voq knows, but how much does Voq know? Probably more than anyone in Section 31 when it comes to the common street level, but that only goes so far.

He brings...
Two private dicks that are sex machines to all the Klingon chicks.
Voq.
You're daaaaaaaaaaaamn right.

He's an advisor on Klingon politics, technology, and strategy, a messenger to L'Rell should they need to contact her again, an exceptional fighter, an experienced infiltrator, knows how to handle torture and imprisonment, is an effective hostage should L'Rell not go along with Section 31's plans, etc.

Can't you come up with something more original?

She's worse than Hitler.

What are you even arguing? Degrees of Hitlerity? Who cares? You both agree she's an evil genocidal cannibal warlord, right?

 

[Rahul]

Oh and *everyone* not only knows Section 31 exists but the "Black badges" brigade is an active topic of conversation in the fleet?

When the fuck did everyone not only know they had an illegal paramilitary facist movement in Starfleet but just accept it?

Yeah, Section 31 is now "the" designated Starfleet Intelligence Service. Not the Illuminate-like secret organization they were originally envisioned as.

I really don't like that either. But that's a trend that started with season 4 ENT, and was completely finalized in "Into Darkness".

It's shitty. But at this point we have to accept that.

Shitting on Spock's entire backstory is marginally less fucked up than that.

This OTOH was my major porblem with this episode, yeah.

 

[Gepard]

Oh and *everyone* not only knows Section 31 exists but the "Black badges" brigade is an active topic of conversation in the fleet?

When the fuck did everyone not only know they had an illegal paramilitary facist movement in Starfleet but just accept it?

Yeah, that's another element this week that just rankles. I accepted, even enjoyed, Section 31 in DS9 when it looked like the Starfleet equivalent of 4chan/Anonymous: a bunch of random assholes who were "members" by virtue of sharing the same values and deciding that they were aligned under a silly name. If that's as far as it went, I don't have problem buying in. But a centralized command, official recognition as its own organization, thier own ships, and badges??? Fuck off with that shit.

 

[dahj]

Degrees of Hitlerity?

What's Kevin Bacon's rating?

 

[Jackson_Roykirk]

But if it does bother you, then They really have achieved Their goal and it IS an effective story telling trope.
(I dislike it as well, but there's no denying it worked to bring about the desired reaction)

I could argue that I'm OK with it if it doesn't linger on for many episodes. Two half-episodes wasn't so bad, and got me just the right amount of frustrated.

Seriously though, that trope falls under the general trope of "Characters -- who otherwise know better -- doing stupid things just for the sake of plot." Tilly avoided falling into this (just barely) by coming forward relatively quickly, rather than being stupid enough to allow it to linger for more episodes, which some writers would have then used as the cause for even larger problems -- problems around which those writers would have even more plot drama happen.

It's like some writers can't figure out how to make bad things happen without having their (supposed) hero characters, either through direct stupid action or through negligent inaction, be the cause of those bad things.

 

[XCV330]

I could argue that I'm OK with it if it doesn't linger on for many episodes. Two half-episodes wasn't so bad, and got me just the right amount of frustrated.

Seriously though, that trope falls under the general trope of "Characters -- who should know better -- doing stupid things just for the sake of plot." Tilly avoided falling into this (just barely) by coming forward relatively quickly, rather than being stupid enough to allow it to linger for more episodes, which some writers would have then used as the cause for even larger problems -- problems around which those writers would have even more plot drama happen.

It's like some writers can't figure out how to make bad things happen without having their (supposed) hero characters, either through direct stupid action or through negligent inaction, be the cause of those bad things.

They need safety signs all over the ship "IF YOU SEE OR HEAR FREAKY SHIT REPORT IT. NO EXCUSES. THIS PLACE IS WEIRD AS FUCK."

 

[Rahul]

What are you even arguing? Degrees of Hitlerity? Who cares? You both agree she's an evil genocidal cannibal warlord, right?

Well, on an objective scale, she's probably several orders of magnitude of "Hitler-y", considering her genocide on interstellar scale.

Wheras regarding the cannibalism, she's probably only a "regular Jeffrey Dahmer"-factor. How many Kelpians did she eat? That seemed to be only for special occasions.

(Which is a shame - I really liked Michelle Yeoh chewing scenery as a leather-clad evil spy doing shady stuff! I just only reeeeeeeeeaaaaaally hate her in-universe backstory)

 

[eschaton]

It's like some writers can't figure out how to make bad things happen without having their (supposed) hero characters, either through direct stupid action or through negligent inaction, be the cause of those bad things.

My general observation is it's very hard for writers to construct a character who is brighter than they are. On the other hand, it's easy to write a character dumber than you are. So selective stupidity is quite often the way that plots move forward.

 

[Kemaiku]

If anything, this makes Into Darkness look like Marcus didn't do anything particularly clever to get where he was or have the Kelvin Archives built.

If this all already happened in the Prime Universe, Into Darkness happening after the Federation equivalent of 9/11 would have him declaring Federation wide martial law, painting the fleet black, half a dozen task forces of ships with Vengeance class ships leading each.

 

[Yistaan]

If Spock has been having dreams of angels since he was a kid, I could maybe let it slide that he never mentioned it to the Enterprise crew (he didn't want them to think he was crazy), but it's practically unfathomable that no one brings it up in Sybok's quest to recruit the Enterprise to find God in Star Trek 5.

 

[dahj]

Well, on an objective scale, she's probably several orders of magnitude of "Hitler-y", considering her genocide on intersetllar scale.

Well that's not really objective. You can't give Hitler extra points for not eating Kelpians if he didn't have the chance to.

 

[Rahul]

On a completely unrelated note:
Regarding the Section 31-ship (great design btw! Inside and out) - like the shot of the Discovery last episode - I really like how they have just regular establishing shots of space-ships upside down! That really helps a lot giving the "space"-vibe. And I love it.

 

[dahj]

I really like how they have just regular establishing shots of space-ships upside down!

Imagine if they introduced NX-01 the same way!

 

[Yistaan]

On a completely unrelated note:
Regarding the Section 31-ship (great design btw! Inside and out) - like the shot of the Discovery last episode - I really like how they have just regular establishing shots of space-ships upside down! That really helps a lot giving the "space"-vibe. And I love it.

They should just have Michelle Yeoh and her Section 31 group show up in the Picard show, no explanations for lack of aging needed--
Picard: Yes, I remember reading about you. But you should have aged or died years ago.
Mirror Georgiou: You think in such three-dimensional terms. How small you are.

 

[Locutus of Bored]

What's Kevin Bacon's rating?

Anthony Hopkins played Hitler in The Bunker and starred alongside Brad Pitt in Meet Joe Black who starred alongside Kevin Bacon in Sleepers.