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What Has Discovery Added To Star Trek Lore?

here's how discovery adds to star trek lore
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But in the exchange from "Flashback" (VGR) that video keeps flogging, it is explicitly stated that "early stages" of the technology in question did exist at the time, and this is borne out by ENT as well.

In "Unexpected" (ENT), Tucker outright says he has experienced 3-D visual simulators before, just not ones which conveyed all the minute sensory details of "actually being there...smell[ing] the ocean, feel[ing] the salt air on your skin," echoing Riker's comments in "Encounter At Farpoint" (TNG) ("I didn't believe these simulations could be this real") and Picard's in "The Big Goodbye" (TNG) ("sounds, smells...the sense of reality was absolutely incredible"), where Troi also makes clear that theirs is an "upgrade" rather than a completely new device altogether. "Sleeping Dogs" (ENT) and "Harbinger" (ENT) show portable holo-emitters routinely utilized by both Starfleet and the MACOs for target practice. And the Vulcans had them as far back as Surak's time, because that's exactly what the titular relic in "Kir'Shara" (ENT) turned out to be! (Kirk's Enterprise herself even sported an impressive holographic recreation room in "The Practical Joker" [TAS].)

In "Dead Stop" (ENT), Trip marvels at a "molecular synthesizer" that T'Pol characterizes as "similar to a protein resequencer"—a device already in use by Starfleet that "can replicate certain foods," yet cannot fully replace a galley and chef, which Discovery too still carries per the "Calypso" short—"but far more advanced." She likens it to one she has seen on a Tarkalean ship that "was capable of replicating almost any inanimate object."

If Harry Kim indeed took Starfleet history at the Academy as he says, then he knows fully well that the "holodecks" and "replicators" of his century represent highly sophisticated and refined versions of tech that has been around for centuries under other names—the smartphones to previous ages' mobile field telephones and cellphones—and as "an expert in holo-technology" per "Message In A Bottle" (VGR), who "used to be nuts about those holo-stories when [he] was a kid" per "Once Upon A Time" (VGR), who "can't imagine just watching the story and not being a part of it" per "Future's End" (VGR), and has even "inadvertently undergone the process of matter conversion" by a malfunctioning holodeck and lived to tell the tale in "Heroes And Demons" (VGR), he'd no doubt appreciate the nuances of the difference all the more. (Not that Wesley's puddle in "Farpoint" or the snowball Picard takes to the face in "Angel One" [TNG] strike as exactly subtle, of course.) Proper holodecks are not mere holographic illusions, but as Janeway describes them, "an outgrowth of transporter technology, changing energy into matter and back again every time a program is run." (Or as Data puts it to Riker, "much of it is real, Sir.") Proper replicators are evidently much the same, and with careful adjustment can even be turned into transporters per "Visionary" (DS9).

As for Voyager's situation, "Basics, Part I" (VGR) pithily sums it up for us...

TORRES: With all due respect, Doctor, we can't even figure out how to project you into this room. How are we supposed to create holographic ships in space?
EMH: [on monitor] I would humbly submit that my program is far more sophisticated than your run of the mill hologram. In fact, projecting the illusion of a large, three-dimensional object has been a trick of magicians for centuries.
PARIS: [facetiously] We'll just do it with mirrors.
EMH: Mister Paris' predictable attempts at humor notwithstanding, that is precisely what I would suggest. Installing holo-emitters along the hull with parabolic mirrors to enlarge the images as they are reflected into space.
KIM: We're going to use up a lot of our power reserves trying to pull it off.

They could well have had holo-displays (as did the Enterprise-D, though they were only seen in use a handful of times early in its run) and holo-communicators that wouldn't have been able to sustain the load of the Doctor's program (nor even run of the mill holodeck characters, in accordance with "Persistence Of Vision" [VGR], or solid projections like the latest model O'Brien installed on the Defiant in "For The Uniform" [DS9]), and simply avoided using them for the same reason they rationed holodeck and replicator use: they were chronically short on power.

As for "ship's stores," the Enterprise-D had those too, and "Data's Day" (TNG) shows them to consist of a room full of replicators with more versatile programming than those in crew quarters, where people would go for specialty items beyond the standard fare. That those on Kirk's Enterprise may well have similarly consisted of dedicated matter synthesizers is indicated in "Patterns Of Force" (TOS), where Kirk requests a very specific Nazi uniform for McCoy to beam down in, with its pattern to be retrieved on demand from the computer's historical databases, and mere moments later he materializes in it before he's even finished putting it on, complaining about how the computer made the boots too tight. Or did you imagine this "wardrobe section" was just a bunch of Edoans who were really quick at sewing?

-MMoM:D
 
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WOW...

Once you get going there's no stopping, huh?
:techman:
Heh, yeah...well, you know how it goes. Been working on bits and pieces of that one (which of course turned into two thanks to forum character limit) on and off in my spare moments for weeks now, not having had enough free time (or enough inclination to devote it, at any rate) to pull it all together until now. It doesn't help that I've become obsessive about checking quotes for accuracy...except with the accuracy part, of course.

-MMoM:D
 
But in the exchange from "Flashback" (VGR) that video keeps flogging, it is explicitly stated that "early stages" of the technology in question did exist at the time, and this is borne out by ENT as well.

In "Unexpected" (ENT), Tucker outright says he has experienced 3-D visual simulators before, just not ones which conveyed all the minute sensory details of "actually being there...smell[ing] the ocean, feel[ing] the salt air on your skin," echoing Riker's comments in "Encounter At Farpoint" (TNG) ("I didn't believe these simulations could be this real") and Picard's in "The Big Goodbye" (TNG) ("sounds, smells...the sense of reality was absolutely incredible"), where Troi also makes clear that theirs is an "upgrade" rather than a completely new device altogether. "Sleeping Dogs" (ENT) and "Harbinger" (ENT) show portable holo-emitters routinely utilized by both Starfleet and the MACOs for target practice. And the Vulcans had them as far back as Surak's time, because that's exactly what the titular relic in "Kir'Shara" (ENT) turned out to be! (Kirk's Enterprise herself even sported an impressive holographic recreation room in "The Practical Joker" [TAS].)

In "Dead Stop" (ENT), Trip marvels at a "molecular synthesizer" that T'Pol characterizes as "similar to a protein resequencer"—a device already in use by Starfleet that "can replicate certain foods," yet cannot fully replace a galley and chef, which Discovery too still carries per the "Calypso" short—"but far more advanced." She likens it to one she has seen on a Tarkalean ship that "was capable of replicating almost any inanimate object."

If Harry Kim indeed took Starfleet history at the Academy as he says, then he knows fully well that the "holodecks" and "replicators" of his century represent highly sophisticated and refined versions of tech that has been around for centuries under other names—the smartphones to previous ages' mobile field telephones and cellphones—and as someone who "used to be nuts about those holostories when [he] was a kid" per "Once Upon A Time" (VGR), who "can't imagine just watching the story and not being a part of it" per "Future's End" (VGR), and has even "inadvertently undergone the process of matter conversion" by a malfunctioning holodeck and lived to tell the tale in "Heroes And Demons" (VGR), he'd no doubt appreciate the nuances of the difference all the more. (Not that Wesley's puddle in "Farpoint" or the snowball Picard takes to the face in "Angel One" [TNG] strike as exactly subtle, of course.) Proper holodecks are not mere holographic illusions, but as Janeway describes them, "an outgrowth of transporter technology, changing energy into matter and back again every time a program is run." (Or as Data puts it to Riker, "much of it is real, Sir.") Proper replicators are evidently much the same, and with careful adjustment can even be turned into transporters per "Visionary" (DS9).

As for Voyager's situation, "Basics, Part I" (VGR) pithily sums it up for us...

TORRES: With all due respect, Doctor, we can't even figure out how to project you into this room. How are we supposed to create holographic ships in space?
EMH: [on monitor] I would humbly submit that my program is far more sophisticated than your run of the mill hologram. In fact, projecting the illusion of a large, three-dimensional object has been a trick of magicians for centuries.
PARIS: [facetiously] We'll just do it with mirrors.
EMH: Mister Paris' predictable attempts at humor notwithstanding, that is precisely what I would suggest. Installing holo-emitters along the hull with parabolic mirrors to enlarge the images as they are reflected into space.
KIM: We're going to use up a lot of our power reserves trying to pull it off.

They could well have had holo-displays (as did the Enterprise-D, though they were only seen in use a handful of times early in its run) and holo-communicators that wouldn't have been able to sustain the load of the Doctor's program (nor even run of the mill holodeck characters, in accordance with "Persistence Of Vision" [VGR], or solid projections like the latest model O'Brien installed on the Defiant in "For The Uniform" [DS9]), and simply avoided using them for the same reason they rationed holodeck and replicator use: they were chronically short on power.

As for "ship's stores," the Enterprise-D had those too, and "Data's Day" (TNG) shows them to consist of a room full of replicators with more versatile programming than those in crew quarters, where people would go for specialty items beyond the standard fare. That those on Kirk's Enterprise may well have similarly consisted of dedicated matter synthesizers is indicated in "Patterns Of Force" (TOS), where Kirk requests a very specific Nazi uniform for McCoy to beam down in, with its pattern to be retrieved on demand from the computer's historical databases, and mere moments later he materializes in it before he's even finished putting it on, complaining about how the computer made the boots too tight. Or did you imagine this "wardrobe section" was just a bunch of Edoans who were really quick at sewing?

-MMoM:D

Yup I've been through all of those discussions before. You can analyze it to death and try to compartmentalize it to be harmonious with continuity if it makes you feel better.

Personally I find this the most convincing argument: Enterprise episode "The Seventh" shows 22nd century vulcan holographic technology similar to communication holographic technology shown on Discovery

GZoX8oE.gif


But the simple fact of the matter is that the technology shown on Star Trek Discovery looks more advanced and commonplace than what we've seen on any other star trek series.
 
But the simple fact of the matter is that the technology shown on Star Trek Discovery looks more advanced and commonplace than what we've seen on any other star trek series.
This.
And endless examples like Riker's amazement when he walks into the holodeck in "Encounter at Farpoint" when Ash and Lorca were in a Klingon ship simulation that looked just as real...
 
This.
And endless examples like Riker's amazement when he walks into the holodeck in "Encounter at Farpoint" when Ash and Lorca were in a Klingon ship simulation that looked just as real...
We don’t know what what Riker was amazed at exactly. Could have been the visuals, could have been the simulated water, air, the smells, or the tastes. Or a combination of all of the above.

There’s no evidence the DSC holodeck was anything more than a glorified firing range.

We don’t see anything in the simulation that make it seem as advanced as TNG. It’s confined to corridors and vanishing Klingons that don’t seem to have any other AI except run and shoot at the users.

If they ever do a simulation that is a wide open area that’s more complicated than what they showed in TAS, than I’ll agree with you.

But as long as the only simulation we see are tight corridors with no wide open spaces, I’m not going to think they’re as advanced as TNG simulations.

Think of it like the development of FPS games the earliest we’re narrow corridor shooters (Wolfenstein) then we got more complicated corridors with the occasional open area (Doom 1 and 2)

I think that’s what is happening here.

But the simple fact of the matter is that the technology shown on Star Trek Discovery looks more advanced and commonplace than what we've seen on any other star trek series.
Nope. I could see the arguments that some of the tech is too close to late 23rd century standards, but it’s not more advanced than the 24th.
 
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Nope. I could see the arguments that some of the tech is too close to late 23rd century standards, but it’s not more advanced than the 24th.

Starfleet technology in the 24th century is more advanced but might be simply more in the background and not so obvious to recognize on first sight.

Like the cities on Earth we saw during the 24th century appear to be even a bit more modest and low tech in comparison to today. We even saw carriages on the streets of New Orleans during "Paradise Lost".
 
We even saw carriages on the streets of New Orleans during "Paradise Lost".
Those are pulled by augmented holohorses that have been known to drink one too many Hurricanes at Chief Pat O'Brien's and do stuff for beads they fortunately cannot remember on the first day of lent.
 
Nope. I could see the arguments that some of the tech is too close to late 23rd century standards, but it’s not more advanced than the 24th.

I'm afraid so. This should be a no-brainer observation. Only time ships from the future and Tom Paris's warp 10 shuttle were capable of teleporting across the galaxy.

DS9 "The Visitor" in the mid 25th century
BASHIR: I haven't worked a two-dimensional control panel in a long time. How did we manage?

3D controls are all over the place on Discovery, no biggy
 
Only time ships from the future and Tom Paris's warp 10 shuttle were capable of teleporting across the galaxy
There is a ton of of advanced technology just abandoned by starfleet over the 6 series and 13 movies. Why not complain about those too? This is hardly unique for the franchise. Stop signaling out DSC for something the other series have done.

The Spore Drive’s story isn’t over yet. Wait for it to finish. Something might happen to the network that stops anyone from using the drive, or dozens of other reasons. It’s too early in the series to make these kind of judgements.

The fact it isn’t used in the 24th century shows means something happens to it.

3D controls are all over the place on Discovery, no biggy
All over the place? No it isn’t. There have been 2 instances.
 
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There is a ton of of advanced technology just abandoned by starfleet over the 6 series and 13 movies. Why not complain about those too? This is hardly unique for the franchise. Stop signaling out DSC for something the other series have done.

The Spore Drive’s story isn’t over yet. Wait for it to finish. Something might happen to the network that stops anyone from using the drive, or dozens of other reasons. It’s too early in the series to make these kind of judgements.

The fact it isn’t used in the 24th century shows means something happens to it.

The computerized display in the space suits looks more advanced than 24th century trek too. Warp drive looks more advanced. View screen is more advanced.

All over the place? No it isn’t. There have been 2 instances.

So if I re-watch discovery, I won't see a 3D console in at least half of the episodes? That stuff was everywhere. Or do you mean 2 instances over the course of many episodes? Crewmen Daniels from the 30th century had that tech, that's about it.
 
I won't see a 3D console in at least half of the episodes?

Yes, you won't.

You'll see projections that can't be interacted with, not consoles.

There have only been 2 examples of intractable 3D controls.

View screen is more advanced.
How is a window more advanced than a digital screen?

Warp drive looks more advanced.

It's just different FX.
It goes slower than 24th century warp based on Pike's dialogue in Episode 2.

The computerized display in the space suits looks more advanced than 24th century trek too.

We can nearly do those TODAY, how can they more advanced than the 24th century?
 
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Yes, you won't.

You'll see projections that can't be interacted with, not consoles.

There have only been 2 examples of intractable 3D controls.

If it can interact with a computer system, it's a console. Whatever you want to call them those interactive projection screens are more advanced than what they're using in the 24th century also.

How is a window more advanced than a digital screen?

Which one looks the most advanced to you:

HZ0VlsV.jpg


like this, most people can tell which is more advanced:

HZ0VOD5.jpg

We can nearly do those TODAY, how can they more advanced than the 24th century?

which one looks the most advanced:

HZ10NB1.jpg
 
This is a silly argument. Just because holograms were not featured heavily in TOS doesn't mean they couldn't have existed in the 23rd century, rather it's simply because a 1960s TV show was not able to depict such a thing at the time.

I think it would be cool to see a recreation of the TOS set, but that all the computer monitors are animated instead of static, that we see holographic displays used when necessary. I wouldn't want to only treat it with the limitations of 1960s technology. I'm surprised fans aren't insane enough to demand that DISCO be shot on film and that special effects should only be composited via optical printers.
 
So if you do a prequel series in 2019, you're beholden to never surpassing 50 year old FX, makeup, prosthetics, costuming, fashion, set construction, film techniques, budgets, etc. even if modern technology and style has itself surpassed them, at least in appearance if not necessarily in function?

Can't you just imagine that the older technologies were more advanced than they were so we can have a viewscreen that doesn't look like Archie Bunker is about to slam his hand on the top of the TV to get a better picture?
 
This is a silly argument. Just because holograms were not featured heavily in TOS doesn't mean they couldn't have existed in the 23rd century, rather it's simply because a 1960s TV show was not able to depict such a thing at the time.

I think it would be cool to see a recreation of the TOS set, but that all the computer monitors are animated instead of static, that we see holographic displays used when necessary. I wouldn't want to only treat it with the limitations of 1960s technology. I'm surprised fans aren't insane enough to demand that DISCO be shot on film and that special effects should only be composited via optical printers.

So if you do a prequel series in 2019, you're beholden to never surpassing 50 year old FX, makeup, prosthetics, costuming, fashion, set construction, film techniques, budgets, etc. even if modern technology and style has itself surpassed them, at least in appearance if not necessarily in function?

Can't you just imagine that the older technologies were more advanced than they were so we can have a viewscreen that doesn't look like Archie Bunker is about to slam his hand on the top of the TV to get a better picture?

yes but this is what I said:

But the simple fact of the matter is that the technology shown on Star Trek Discovery looks more advanced and commonplace than what we've seen on any other star trek series.

technically that is a simple fact. Gotta do this

HZ1bUJD.jpg
 
There's no proof in TOS that the technology featured in DISCO didn't exist, they simply weren't shown. NOW we can see them.

The proof is there. But if I point it out you'll explain it away as circumstantial evidence and then claim it's not proof.

TOS "The Day of The Dove"
KIRK: We can't get through the Klingon defences in time, unless. Spock. Intra-ship beaming from one section to another. It's possible?
SPOCK: It has rarely been done because of the danger involved. Pinpoint accuracy is required. If the transportee should materialise inside a solid object, a deck or wall.
SCOTT: Even if it could work, she may be leading you into a trap.

and they do it a bunch of times in discovery.

TOS "I, Mudd"
MUDD: There is an entire crew aboard. An entire crew of androids. They learn very quickly, Captain. The fact is, I've taken over your whole ship. There's nothing you can do about it.
KIRK: Harry, Harry, you'll never get away with it.
MUDD: Well, who's to stop me?
KIRK: Starfleet.
MUDD: But now, Captain, now I have a ship of my own as fast as any in the fleet, so how will they catch me, eh? Just think of it, laddybuck. Harry Mudd with his own crew of lovelies aboard your vessel. Think about that.
KIRK: I'm trying not to.

Mudd acting like the technology doesn't exist to catch the enteprise (spore drive)
 
The proof is there. But if I point it out you'll explain it away as circumstantial evidence and then claim it's not proof.

TOS "The Day of The Dove"


and they do it a bunch of times in discovery.

TOS "I, Mudd"


Mudd acting like the technology doesn't exist to catch the enteprise (spore drive)
Perhaps you've forgotten that Discovery was built to be a "HUGE TEST-BED" for new and developing Federation/StarFleet Technology.
There's absolutely no reason to believe that MU-Lorca wouldn't have been head-over-heels giddy with the fact that the ship he absconded with, had multiple new high-tech experiments going on.
And he was most certainly not against trying them out, especially if they worked.

Just because the tech doesn't get immediately passed around to other Star Fleet ships, doesn't mean it can't exist.
:techman:
 
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