Picard series confirmed post-Romulus

[Damian]

I thought this was definitively answered already, and it was - way back in 2008:



Bob Orci said - 11 freaking years ago - that the Prime Timeline did not cease to exist. I dunno how anyone would think this was subject to debate.

Yeah, what some will argue though is because someone on screen did not explicitly say it, then it's not canon.

Now I can only go by what I see. I saw a lot of empirical evidence in the film that suggested this was a new timeline, some lines of dialogue that indicated as such, and the writer of the movie confirming it.

Now we have a new series coming out reconfirming it. I don't know how much more evidence we need.

The movie strongly implied it, the writer of the movie confirmed it. God, I think some people would argue with, well, God.

 

[Damian]

I really don't understand the hand wringing. Alternate and parallel universes are old hat to Trek, dating to TOS. So, what's the issue?

And yes, that's true to. The mirror universe was the first evidence of that.

I don't understand the hand wringing either. You have one guy who apparently does not want any Romulans, yet at the same time argues that Romulus should not be destroyed. Well, destroying their home world would be a sure fire way to reduce their numbers so they don't annoy you as much.

And I can tell you if they ignored it, and Romulus showed up in the nu-TNG show, they'd probably get scores of letters calling them idiots. I can see it now "Don't you morons know Romulus was destroyed". It's a big deal. I know over in a related literature thread we've been wondering when the novels were going to cover the event. I believe the online game covered it. Comic books covered it. It would get noticed if it was ignored.

 

[Tuskin38]

So actually the Kelvin time line is dead and just this one event is being persevered because everything that is Kelvin happens after the destruction of Romulus? if that is the case I think I can live with that.

The Timeline isn't dead. Or do you just mean them making the movies?

I believe the online game covered it.

Yeah it's been a thing in the game since launch, though the actual cause of the supernova wasn't fully revealed until a few years in.

Cryptic actually had plans to make Romulus a Social Zone, but then CBS told them what ST09 was doing and they had to change their plans since it was a canon event in the Prime Timeline.

I'll also note, Paramount isn't credited anywhere in the game, only CBS. If that means anything.

 

[ITDUDE]

And I can tell you if they ignored it, and Romulus showed up in the nu-TNG show, they'd probably get scores of letters calling them idiots. I can see it now "Don't you morons know Romulus was destroyed". It's a big deal. I know over in a related literature thread we've been wondering when the novels were going to cover the event. I believe the online game covered it. Comic books covered it. It would get noticed if it was ignored.

Oh and trust me, they'll get letters (do people still send those?) that say, wait Vulcan is destroyed, why is it still there?
No matter how you slice it, one universe was always going to end up a closed loop and marked dead. They probably figured Kelvin only has 3 movies to it and no TV shows, so it's easier to kill it.

 

[Tuskin38]

Oh and trust me, they'll get letters (do people still send those?) that say, wait Vulcan is destroyed, why is it still there?
No matter how you slice it, one universe was always going to end up a closed loop and marked dead. They probably figured Kelvin only has 3 movies to it and no TV shows, so it's easier to kill it.

I don't understand how this is killing it.

 

[F. King Daniel]

Oh and trust me, they'll get letters (do people still send those?) that say, wait Vulcan is destroyed, why is it still there?
No matter how you slice it, one universe was always going to end up a closed loop and marked dead. They probably figured Kelvin only has 3 movies to it and no TV shows, so it's easier to kill it.

They never had to "kill" any universe any more than they have to kill the DCTV universe because of the DCEU movies. Star Trek 4 died because of botched negotiations with Chris Pine and Chris Hemsworth, not because of continuity confusion. If Paramount were willing to pay what they agreed upon, the Kelvin universe would still be ongoing concurrently to the CBS-AA stuff.

 

[ITDUDE]

I don't understand how this is killing it.

Well, there want be any more movies or tv series set in it, so as they say: It's dead, Jim!

 

[Captain Moe]

The Timeline isn't dead. Or do you just mean them making the movies?

No I mean as the events of 2009 depicted in the new time line have no relevance in the new TV verse. I guess there could still be movies so dead probably isn't the right word but for all intense and purpose those events never happened (in the current universe) and are irrelevant.

 

[mdtauk]

The cancelling or suspending of the ST4 movie, does not necessarily end the JJverse. There is the Quentin Tarantino movie that could be brought forward.

 

[Gonzo]

They never had to "kill" any universe any more than they have to kill the DCTV universe because of the DCEU movies. Star Trek 4 died because of botched negotiations with Chris Pine and Chris Hemsworth, not because of continuity confusion. If Paramount were willing to pay what they agreed upon, the Kelvin universe would still be ongoing concurrently to the CBS-AA stuff.

Bit of a shame really, would have been nice to get a 4th movie but that would require contract renewal and it clearly didn't go well, Paramount being cheapskates as usual and shot themselves in the foot.

I enjoyed all 3 of the Kelvin films and Romulus being popped will open up opportunities just like the destruction of Vulcan did.

 

[eschaton]

No I mean as the events of 2009 depicted in the new time line have no relevance in the new TV verse. I guess there could still be movies so dead probably isn't the right word but for all intense and purpose those events never happened (in the current universe) and are irrelevant.

Why does the Kelvinverse have to be an ongoing thing in order to be relevant?

I just don't get it. Lots of other series have continual retcons, and people don't think that it suddenly invalidates all of the old stories.

Because that's what they are. Stories.

 

[fireproof78]

No matter how you slice it, one universe was always going to end up a closed loop and marked dead.

Nope. Unless the Mirror Universe is dead until we see it again. Schrodinger's universe?

Why does the Kelvinverse have to be an ongoing thing in order to be relevant?

I just don't get it. Lots of other series have continual retcons, and people don't think that it suddenly invalidates all of the old stories.

Because that's what they are. Stories.

Exactly this. Kelvin Universe continues on (insert-it's not really dead as long as we remember it quote here). Any more than the Prime Universe was dead while the Kelvin Movies were going.

This is a very odd line of thinking to me...

 

[Owain Taggart]

I don't understand the hand wringing either.

Yeah, same here. Issue seems pretty clear-cut to me. Not only that, everyone gets to have their cake and eat it too. Not sure what's to compain. This is categorically good news for the franchise and fans of the Prime. Now it can finally move forward again.

 

[Korusan]

It's going to be a hell of a ride, I can't wait. Part of me wants to see elderly Picard tending to his vineyards, but Patrick Stewart himself is pretty lively still, so it wouldn't shock me if he subverted the crazy old Professor X thing (easy to do with his Irumodic syndrome). Post-Romulus means that the Romulans can be any number of things; refugees, nomads, conquerors even.

No I mean as the events of 2009 depicted in the new time line have no relevance in the new TV verse.

As we saw in the Kelvin universe stories, Romulus blew up and Spock from the original timeline is dead and not coming back. This is major.

 

[Phily B]

As long as they don't Last Jedi him, which is the big fear. Though since it isn't a movie, at least it won't be action hero Picard.

 

[Captain Moe]

As we saw in the Kelvin universe stories, Romulus blew up and Spock from the original timeline is dead and not coming back. This is major.

I had already mentioned Romulus in a previous post, this was mainly directed at the event that take place post Spock traveling back in time to an alternate universe.

 

[Rahul]

The destruction of Romulus as it's own story would be a worthwile endeavour (though clearly not the direction I wish for a new Picard show).

But using the Picard show to retroactively explain a background from another movie? Jesus Christ! These people should stop being so overly obsessed with self-references and their own lore! I like Star Trek. I don't like Star Trek mainly being about explaining previous Star Trek.

 

[dinzy]

The destruction of Romulus as it's own story would be a worthwile endeavour (though clearly not the direction I wish for a new Picard show).

But using the Picard show to retroactively explain a background from another movie? Jesus Christ! These people should stop being so overly obsessed with self-references and their own lore! I like Star Trek. I don't like Star Trek mainly being about explaining previous Star Trek.

Speak for yourself. From 2005 until 2017 the only Trek was Kelvin Trek. I enjoyed it, as did millions of other Trek fans. Prime Spock's story was important to the overall plot of the first movie as he had to witness the destruction of 2 planets he cared deeply about ( one off screen ) and one in the new universe. I would be pissed if that was ignored in the Picard show. It was a major plot point of the movie. It was basically Spock's end.

There is no retroactive explaining. It was laid out plainly in ST09. Romulus was destroyed in the Prime universe. Eliminating the home world of one of the major powers in the region would clearly be a major factor in the dynamics of the Federation a decade or so later. The only way it would not impact the Picard show would be if they were planning to do a Voyager retread and set Picard at the edge of the galaxy somewhere.

Technically it is still unclear whether or not this series will take place in the Prime universe. All we know is it has Prime Picard and the destruction of Romulus was a factor. Picard could have been there, saw Spock decided to follow him, and then end up later in the Kelvin Universe where he has been dealing with whatever that could mean. This would piss me off and would likely piss off most people. This would be overly obsessed with self references because the Kelvin movies would be the only backstory available outside the backstory/ies that followed Picard.

 

[Timelord79 (he/him)]

In pretty much all instances where we saw a timeline altered, forcing the heroes to correct history , leaves out if the original timeline still goes on in a parallel fashion.

What we see are the heroes of the original timeline perceiving a change while somehow protected from disappearance.
Usually turning things for the worse to give them motivation for action.
But was disappearing actually in the cards or not?

In FC the crew gets a glimpse of altered Borgified Earth only through the lens of the time vortex.

When Sisko’s crew changed the past, the Defiant was at the center of the anomaly causing the time shift in the first place.

We only ever saw the perspective of Kirk and Spock on the planet on the edge of tomorrow where everything was wobbly-wobbly anyway.

About the only instance I can think of where someone actually overwrites Prime history is Year of Hell, but that is a unique mechanism.

And then there is Yesterday’s Enterprise where the perspective we follow us actually he Enterprise C from the moment it jumps to the future.

We only jump back to regular Prime after it leaves giving us the E-D’s perspective where nothing happened except a brief anomaly for a second or so.

This will be the first time we follow a perspective of non-involved people after a time travel event.
And all they notice is the disappearance of the time travelers who are now continuing in a retroactively created timeline for their next 20 years or so no longer effecting Prime in the past , present or future.

 

[Kirk Prime]

The "method" of time travel is important here, and actually has some support from real physics (suspend the notion that time travel is probably impossible...). The internal structure of what's called a Reissner-Nordstrom black hole (a black hole with electric charge) allows one to avoid the singularity and traverse into a different universe and also potentially a different time. That's how I justify the no-reset of the timeline, unlike what has been established previously in Trekdom.

Honestly, real physics, while interesting, isn't important, based on what we have seen in actual Star Trek. You bring up a fair and interesting point--as a fan, that is good thinking. However, it is not for the fan to fix the writers' mistakes or laziness. The writers knew full well how time travel in Star Trek worked. Even more important, these people chose what to write, and what to have the characters say. To not expressly use the word "other universe" matters. They left it vague at best, and that was intentional--and not the best decision in my opinion, because it still remains an issue to many this day.

Yeah, and Star Trek has played with the idea of alternate universes as well. Yes, usually in time travel stories in Star Trek they change the past and someone has to go back to fix it. But the idea of travelling to an alternate timeline is not unheard of in Star Trek. I think if I remember correctly the writers of Star Trek (2009) did use the black hole/singularity idea for that reason.

I agree with you--except that they chose not to establish this--intentionally. Orci is not a character in Star Trek. Canon is what happens on screen. On screen, the writers did not establish that Nero traveled to another universe AS WELL as through time. It would have been easy then. But because they did not say it, the only presumption has to be that they did not change universes, and the alternate realty created is the prime timeline overwritten--a result I think many fans would find undesirable--and one that in theory, the Picard show can fix in one line.

But this definitely answers the questions that "many" are asking... The Prime timeline continues to exist, egro the Kelvin timeline is an alternate universe.

Not necessarily--all timelines have a past, present and future. They exist in their entirety. Before McCoy traveled to 1930, a timeline existed in which the US won WWII, the Federation was formed, and McCoy came to that Guardian planet. Picard existed, Janeway existed, DS9 existed, etc. But when McCoy saved Edith, all of that ceased to exist because Edith's peace movement gave Germany the bomb first.

All of it was gone.

Kirk and Spock helped put it back on track, but before THAT happened, in that time before Kirk and Spock stepped in the portal, a whole new timeline existed, past, present and future. It may have been completely different, but it existed--until it was overwritten again by Kirk and Spock's actions.

That alternate City on the Edge reality had a past, present and future too--different of course, but it existed and during that time, the prime timeline did not.

The events of ST09 are no different. The prime timeline, before Nero went back, existed--with a past, present and future. There WOULD have been a future post Romulus, even if the prime timeline was erased. Only by showing examples of the Kelvin timeline, IN the prime timeline, would it be acceptable that the prime timeline was not affected by Nero.

That actually would be a damn cool story. Would Picard have still been born in the Kelvin timeline? What if there is a story where Kelvin Picard brings back a message from Spock Prime in a crossover episode?

That's all it would take to end the debate once and for all. Not some comment that Orci made 11 years ago.

Yeah, what some will argue though is because someone on screen did not explicitly say it, then it's not canon.

Exactly. And while no, we wouldn't argue with God, in terms of writing, the writers ARE God. And in this case, they CHOSE not to make this point clear. I believe the reason they did so was so people couldn't say that "this isn't the 'real' Kirk and Spock, but just copies." They wanted to have their cake and eat it too. It didn't work.

Another potential storyline would be maybe Picard finding out what happened with Nero, and a story arc where Picard saves the timeline. Something involving the temporal police.