Spoilers New Picard TV Series and Litverse Continuity (may contain TV show spoilers)

[Damian]

One more time: TNG overwrote the '80s novel continuity by what it established about the present, and about time-spanning things like the nature of Klingon and Romulan societies. It didn't need to refer to specific past events to be inconsistent. It was the overall worldbuilding that did it.

OK, you win. Based on past experience the ongoing litverse (at least most of it) is probably doomed. You're probably right, in fact, that's probably exactly what will happen.

To be perfectly honest, that was my opinion early on. That the nu-TNG show would likely undo most if not all of the existing relaunch litverse and that they would come to an end. Pocketbooks I know is not going to continue authorizing books that take place in a continuum that is not consistent with on screen canon---even with some sort of acknowledgment that the books take place independent of the show. Ain't goin to happen. That much I know.

My feeling that I've noted a number of times would be that the novels would primarily be original series and tie-ins to the current shows, and very little, if any DS9, Voyager and Enterprise books. And that the TNG books would shift to be tie-ins to the new show once that started.

And you're probably right. There are a lot of storylines and narrative that are involved. And on the flip side one line of dialogue in the new show can take it all down, and it doesn't even have to be a historical statement.

I just wanted to maintain a sliver of hope that the litverse continuity could continue, however slim that is.

 

[Damian]

I guess you can say I was just trying to explain a scenario where they could co-exist. And like you noted, there is very little info out there.

But I know the fact of the matter is, it's probably not going to happen. They'd basically have to have someone on the show staff who would keep track of all those prior narratives, which is unrealistic...and probably unprecedented in Star Trek.

Really, probably the only chance is if one or more of the showrunners have been avid readers of the litverse, loved them and decided they wanted to keep that going. And realistically what is the chance of that happening?

 

[Christopher]

OK, you win. Based on past experience the ongoing litverse (at least most of it) is probably doomed. You're probably right, in fact, that's probably exactly what will happen.

No; as I said already, either they'd make a clean break and start over, or they'd take the route taken by Trek novels during ENT and Star Wars novels during the prequel/The Clone Wars era: pretending to be a consistent continuity while selectively overwriting the parts contradicted by new canon.

 

[Damian]

No; as I said already, either they'd make a clean break and start over, or they'd take the route taken by Trek novels during ENT and Star Wars novels during the prequel/The Clone Wars era: pretending to be a consistent continuity while selectively overwriting the parts contradicted by new canon.

Ok, I hadn't thought of it in those terms. The possibility of some sort of happy medium where only some is overwritten and leaving a window where the litverse can continue with changes to bring it in line with the nu-TNG show. I was misunderstanding what you were getting at. Other than the movies, I haven't followed Star Wars to any great degree (in fact, I still haven't seen the Last Jedi) so I'm not really familiar with their literature and how it works.

I was thinking all or nothing. While it would be nice if the stories could continue with minimal disruption, that'd still be a better option than nothing at all. I could live with that (well if anyone really cares what I can live with) .

 

[mos6507]

Really, probably the only chance is if one or more of the showrunners have been avid readers of the litverse

Just readers? Kristen Beyer is a litverse author and is associated with the Picard show. You'd think she'd know about the litverse continuity.

 

[Damian]

Just readers? Kristen Beyer is a litverse author and is associated with the Picard show. You'd think she'd know about the litverse continuity.

Yeah. That's true. But you'd really need more than that. They, and Patrick Stewart for that matter, would have to all agree that they liked where the litverse has gone and made a decision that they did not want to conflict with the litverse for it to remain unaffected. And I guess with her knowledge she would be their 'fact checker' on all that.

But that's a lot of ifs. And I don't recall there ever being a time where a Star Trek series decided to do something remotely like that.

 

[ryan123450]

No; as I said already, either they'd make a clean break and start over, or they'd take the route taken by Trek novels during ENT and Star Wars novels during the prequel/The Clone Wars era: pretending to be a consistent continuity while selectively overwriting the parts contradicted by new canon.

This is exactly what I’m hoping for. All we need is a little luck and editorial and authorial intent to handle things that way.

 

[flandry84]

Somehow I get the feeling that a lot of current Treklit storylines will get the Poochy(Simpsons) treatment.

 

[Christopher]

Other than the movies, I haven't followed Star Wars to any great degree (in fact, I still haven't seen the Last Jedi) so I'm not really familiar with their literature and how it works.

It's worked both ways. In the past, they did as I said -- kept on with their putative continuity while rewriting it to fit new movies and shows. Once the sequel trilogy was put in motion, though, it made more sense just to disregard the entire post-Return of the Jedi tie-in continuity, which was really most of the Expanded Universe; so they decided to relegate that entire continuity to "Legends" status and start over, with a systematic effort to keep everything mutually consistent (though I expect that will only last until the first time a movie needs to do something that contradicts one of the "canonical" books or comics, and then it'll probably end up going much the same piecemeal way as the old EU).

Note, however, that the new SW continuity has incorporated a number of characters and concepts originated in the EU, but has retold their stories to fit the new continuity; for instance, Timothy Zahn's character of Grand Admiral Thrawn, created for the novel trilogy that essentially began the EU, was reintroduced into the modern canon as a character in Star Wars Rebels, and Zahn himself has written a new pair of novels (which I think is going to be a trilogy) that retells Thrawn's story for the new canon, with the essentials of the character and his backstory remaining the same but the specific events changed to fit.

Just readers? Kristen Beyer is a litverse author and is associated with the Picard show. You'd think she'd know about the litverse continuity.

Which doesn't mean she'd stay consistent with it. Writers often work in multiple continuities, depending on the context of their work and who they're working for. For instance, when Dennis O'Neill and Len Wein wrote episodes of Batman: The Animated Series adapting their '70s comics stories, they set them in the B:TAS continuity instead of the DC Comics continuity. Alan Burnett, a producer and writer on B:TAS, went on to produce and write for numerous other Batman animated productions in several incompatible continuities. Novelist Robert J Sawyer consulted for and wrote an episode of the TV series FlashForward, which was based on his novel of that title but only very loosely, telling its own separate story. When you write for a different version of a franchise, you adapt your ideas to fit it rather than forcing it to fit some earlier project you worked on. That's the only approach that makes sense.

And of course, while Kirsten came up with the initial pitch for the new show and I believe will be getting a co-creator credit, she's still a junior member of the staff, so what the show does is not exclusively her decision. She'd be free to suggest incorporating ideas from the novels in some form, but those would just be part of the creative mix even if they were accepted by Kurtzman, Chabon, Stewart, etc.

 

[Damian]

Which doesn't mean she'd stay consistent with it. Writers often work in multiple continuities, depending on the context of their work and who they're working for.

Yeah, I've seen some Star Trek novelists that worked with comics also. Now I'm not into the comics, but it's my understanding usually they follow their own continuity (though I know sometimes a story element or character may crossover). And I'm not positive but since Peter David wrote almost all the NF stories I assume that his NF comics were probably compatible with the books.

In fact, are there comics that also have a continuity post-Nemesis? If so I wonder if they are having conversations about how much of their continuity will survive as well.

But since I don't read comics I don't care about them (just kidding).

 

[Christopher]

Yeah, I've seen some Star Trek novelists that worked with comics also. Now I'm not into the comics, but it's my understanding usually they follow their own continuity (though I know sometimes a story element or character may crossover). And I'm not positive but since Peter David wrote almost all the NF stories that his NF comics were probably compatible with the books.

As I've said, it depends. Look -- continuity is not the overarching end goal of creativity. It's just an attribute of a work of fiction. It's a tool that serves the stories; the stories do not exist to serve it. Whether you put two stories in the same continuity or different ones depends on the needs of the specific stories.

There have been numerous different Trek comics with different approaches to continuity. Publishers like Wildstorm and IDW have tended to do mostly standalone stories or ones in various different continuities, allowing for some individual titles to be compatible with the novels while others were not. Alternatively, you have cases like the DC run or the Marvel/Paramount Comics run where original characters crossed over between the novels and comics (e.g. Diane Duane using her novel characters like Harb Tanzer and Naraht in her DC issues, or Andy Mangels & Mike Martin borrowing some Marvel/Paramount characters like Etana Kol and Pava ek'Noor for the novels) even though the two continuities were not really compatible. Fictional continuity is rarely as all-or-nothing as many fans want it to be. There's frequently a degree of fudging and pretending going on, things that put on a show of fitting together even though it doesn't hold up when you examine the specifics. Continuity is just one tool in the kit, and different artists use a tool in different ways.

 

[JD]

I realize that. And I know it's not like CBS is going to go around and confiscate everyone's books and do a memory wipe or anything. I'd just would like to see those stories continue as there are tons of things going on, and continuing storylines that I'd hate to see just end.



I'm not denying that. It's just I don't think they're going to say such and such happened to Captain Picard two years after Nemesis. With Sisko and DS9 they had no previous on screen past for him so it was logical they would bring up things that happened not seen on screen. With Picard's past prior to the supernova, we have an entire TV series that sets up his past. I was just pointing out if he brings up something that happened in his past, it will likely be a nod to something from the series, or maybe movies, because it's something the fans will remember. With all that on screen history I doubt they'd mention something never seen on screen. I think they'd rather a "Hey I remember when that happened" as opposed to "what are they talking about". But yeah, that has nothing to do with the here and now and depicting something that sends the house of cards crashing down.

I don't know, I would think the opposite would be true, with 12 years between the show and when we saw Picard last, I would think they would want to fill in those gaps rather than just telling people about stuff they already know.

Yeah, I agree. And absolutely whether the litverse can be preserved or not, it's not going to be required reading for the new show. In either case they'll write the show that you don't have to have any prior knowledge about it to watch it (well, I guess since it's building off TNG show it will probably be helpful to have at least some passing familiarity to the show itself).

Nor do I expect that. If it can be preserved to a large degree, then I'll personally be looking to the novels to fill in the details and the gaps. If not, the tie-in fiction will still be there, but in that case I think it will be more like Discovery's novels, where they are one off novels that give more details about things mentioned in the show (I don't believe they'll be a new continuing narrative in the novels in that case).

And yeah, until the show starts it's all speculation and what if's. In any event I hope it's a good show. I'd hate to see the litverse blown up for a lousy show, though honestly that would be a shock with Patrick Stewart's chops.

On the very, very, very, very small chance that they do use the books (yes, I know there is almost no chance of this happening, but let's just pretend there is), there would be almost a decade between the most recent books and the new show, so it would pretty much just be backstory that wouldn't necessarily be needed to understand what's happening now. So it would leave the books as more of a just a bit of extra backstory for people who are curious about what happened before the show. Kind of how the current Discovery novels are giving extra bits of backstory, or how the current non-subtitle Star Wars comic is filling in the gapes between the movies.

Yeah, I've seen some Star Trek novelists that worked with comics also. Now I'm not into the comics, but it's my understanding usually they follow their own continuity (though I know sometimes a story element or character may crossover).

There actually has been quite a bit of crossover between the two, even with books that aren't written by people who wrote the comics.
Like Christopher said, Diane Duane used her original characters in the comics issues she wrote.
The Wildstorm graphic novel, The Gorn Crisis was not written as part of the Novelverse, but it was incorporated into it when KRAD used it as part of Nan Bacco's backstory in the some of her first appearances.
There was also Wildstorm's DS9/TNG Divided We Stand, which was written by David Mack, and is a full part of the DS9 Relaunch, with appearances by Vaughn, Shar, Ro, and I think possibly one or two other Relaunch characters. It is set between Cloak and Demons and of Air and Darkness, and I believe there are specific references to it in one or two of the later stories.
I can't remember for sure since I only read it once when it first came out, but I believe the Andorian issue of IDW's Alien Spotlight uses the Novelverse's four genders.
KRAD wrote a Klingon issue for the same series that uses the Novelverse's term for the smooth headed Klingons.
It doesn't fit into the Novelverse, but IDW's post-Nemesis TNG miniseries Hive, which has a story by Brannon Braga and script by 12 Monkey's showrunners Terry Matalas and Travis Fickett, uses the Novelverse's design for the Titan, and features brief appearances by Christine Vale and Tuvok in the positions they have in the books.
I think there have been other instances of the comics fitting in with the novels, but those are the ones I can think of off the top of my head.

And I'm not positive but since Peter David wrote almost all the NF stories I assume that his NF comics were probably compatible with the books.

Actually they weren't. His first couple comics were consistent with his books, but then his third one had the Mirror Universe NF characters crossover into the Prime Universe, and the story was consistent with PD's MU novella, but not with Rise Like Lions.

 

[Damian]

On the very, very, very, very small chance that they do use the books (yes, I know there is almost no chance of this happening, but let's just pretend there is), there would be almost a decade between the most recent books and the new show, so it would pretty much just be backstory that wouldn't necessarily be needed to understand what's happening now. So it would leave the books as more of a just a bit of extra backstory for people who are curious about what happened before the show. Kind of how the current Discovery novels are giving extra bits of backstory, or how the current non-subtitle Star Wars comic is filling in the gapes between the movies.

Yeah, I think that would happen in either event. If the novelverse can be retained to a reasonable degree as is, then future novels will simply fill in the gap between the destruction of Romulus and the nu-TNG show. And readers would see a logical progression leading to the new show as it would still be a tie-in. That would probably be the case if we get something in between too, where if certain elements and storylines can be retained with a bit of retconning.

And if not. If the novelverse as we know it has to come to an end, then what I see happening is the same that you see with Discovery. That they'll be novels used to give backstory on things from the show. I wouldn't be surprised in that case that they be standalone novels mostly--with maybe some linkage since it will likely be centered on Captain Picard. Some novels may reference prior novels but I think they'll be little carryover otherwise. I'm doubtful that we'll get a continuing narrative like we see now, that's just a feeling but I'd be surprised if it was.

But in either case they will certainly serve to support the nu-TNG show. The format will depend on the show's impact on the litverse.

And another aspect to consider is when the show starts we may find in the early going that it may initially be compatible. It may be 10 episodes in before something happens that renders to litverse obsolete (as far as future books go). So it can happen at anytime that something is said or done that makes the litverse difficulty or impossible to continue as is.

 

[Damian]

As I've said, it depends. Look -- continuity is not the overarching end goal of creativity. It's just an attribute of a work of fiction. It's a tool that serves the stories; the stories do not exist to serve it. Whether you put two stories in the same continuity or different ones depends on the needs of the specific stories.

There have been numerous different Trek comics with different approaches to continuity. Publishers like Wildstorm and IDW have tended to do mostly standalone stories or ones in various different continuities, allowing for some individual titles to be compatible with the novels while others were not. Alternatively, you have cases like the DC run or the Marvel/Paramount Comics run where original characters crossed over between the novels and comics (e.g. Diane Duane using her novel characters like Harb Tanzer and Naraht in her DC issues, or Andy Mangels & Mike Martin borrowing some Marvel/Paramount characters like Etana Kol and Pava ek'Noor for the novels) even though the two continuities were not really compatible. Fictional continuity is rarely as all-or-nothing as many fans want it to be. There's frequently a degree of fudging and pretending going on, things that put on a show of fitting together even though it doesn't hold up when you examine the specifics. Continuity is just one tool in the kit, and different artists use a tool in different ways.

Thanks for the background BTW with this and Star Wars literature. All I really knew about comics is that there was occasional crossover. And I read the summary about Countdown on Memory Alpha as I was curious about Nero's backstory.

Despite some of my protestations, I'm ok with a little fudging . Like the example you noted with the Tholians on Enterprise. In a way I don't think their appearance on Enterprise was totally contradictory. I mean, they still had a multi-legged appearance (see, I can fudge). I'd love to see a Tzenkethi as described in the novels too--they seem totally alien and it would be nice to see something like that on screen, but I digress.

It's more big picture stuff that can't be reconciled or fudged. Like the Borg still being in the picture, or Picard never having a family. There's things that can be retconned, fudged or even in some cases ignored. But then there are some things that just make it virtually impossible to continue. The show will do what it needs to do and I hope it's a good show. It's just in a perfect world they'd be able to do that and make a great show that has minimal disruption of some great stories in the litverse as well. If they do that, then WOW, that would be great. If not, well, whatcha goin to do. Suck it up buttercup as they say.

 

[JoeZhang]

The other reason besides the fact that the tail never wags the dog is that simply a sense of mystery - why is it Picard and Riker haven't spoken since Nemesis? Why did Crusher kill herself? What is the relationship of new character X to Picard?

You cannot do this if people can read memory Beta and get the lowdown.

 

[Christopher]

Despite some of my protestations, I'm ok with a little fudging . Like the example you noted with the Tholians on Enterprise. In a way I don't think their appearance on Enterprise was totally contradictory. I mean, they still had a multi-legged appearance (see, I can fudge).

IIRC, The Sundered even had a couple of lines implying that Tholians had a variety of different physical forms, either as a way of reconciling the book with the various incompatible descriptions of them in earlier books, or as a hedge against future portrayals in canon.

I'd love to see a Tzenkethi as described in the novels too--they seem totally alien and it would be nice to see something like that on screen, but I digress.

Their description is pretty similar to the aliens in the movie Cocoon, I think.

 

[Damian]

Their description is pretty similar to the aliens in the movie Cocoon, I think.

Yeah, I can see that. In a way it almost reminded me of the standard issue alien forms you see in some old fashioned sci-fi and comic books. And Star Trek's big enough to fit in one standard issue alien life form. And their designers are pretty good. They can probably add some features that make them more interesting.

 

[Mr. Laser Beam]

As far as Riker, I'd be shocked if he weren't Admiral by now regardless of their stance on the litverse. 20 years after Nemesis, and he clearly had ambition. Besides, I'd be shocked if Jonathan Frakes didn't appear as a guest star at some point. And as an admiral he'd be in a better position to help Picard with some situation (I think it's logical to assume there will be a situation where a Starfleet Admiral that is a close friend of Picards would be of help---and not just have him come over for tea and conversation, that would be a waste).

IIRC, in the current novelverse, Riker is indeed an Admiral.

 

[Damian]

IIRC, in the current novelverse, Riker is indeed an Admiral.

Yeah. I know. It was a response to an earlier post about Riker and whether the nu-TNG would keep him as Admiral or not (if he is mentioned--frankly I hope he's in it a some point). I was just making the point that litverse or not litverse, close to 20 years after making captain it would be reasonable that he would be an Admiral by then.

 

[TheAlmanac]

The other reason besides the fact that the tail never wags the dog is that simply a sense of mystery - why is it Picard and Riker haven't spoken since Nemesis? Why did Crusher kill herself? What is the relationship of new character X to Picard?

You cannot do this if people can read Memory Beta and get the lowdown.

Not to keep using Star Wars examples, but it's possible to thread the needle with this sort of thing--the twist at the end of Solo (I'll avoid specific spoilers) was still a surprise to me even though it would be more of a surprise to people who weren't familiar with events on The Clone Wars and Rebels, and the franchise goal (I imagine) was partially to get people to seek out those further stories for enlightenment (even though they could "get the lowdown" on Wookieepedia if they wanted to ).