Spoilers Star Trek: Short Treks 1x04 - "The Escape Artist"

[Timo]

The other approach is to ponder what money is used for. If it buys starships for the government or planets for quintillionaires but all lunches are free and nobody gets a salary, the average consumer would never come to contact with money - in which case Kirk would be stunned that food or transportation carries a monetary cost.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Rahul]

The other approach is to ponder what money is used for. If it buys starships for the government or planets for quintillionaires but all lunches are free and nobody gets a salary, the average consumer would never come to contact with money - in which case Kirk would be stunned that food or transportation carries a monetary cost.

Timo Saloniemi

Most likely. Post-scarcity societies spanning multiple star systems would have resources available at an unimaginable scale. Them having a different type of economy overall is not just possible, but very, very likely.

 

[eschaton]

Most likely. Post-scarcity societies spanning multiple star systems would have resources available at an unimaginable scale. Them having a different type of economy overall is not just possible, but very, very likely.

I mean, the replicator means that whatever the Federation economy is, it really can't be capitalism as we understand it, given (provided energy is relatively cheap) anything related to the manufacturing process is basically done away with. Services (and property) may still have some sort of value, but most goods are essentially worthless.

 

[CorporalClegg]

The Star Trek universe isn't post-scarcity. I don't know why people keep insisting that it is. Better than half the stories/plots wouldn't be possible if it were.

The onscreen evidence overwhelmingly shows that they are dependant on multiple resources, replicators are not all-powerful, and that manufacturing and fabrication of goods is still necessary.

 

[eschaton]

The Star Trek universe isn't post-scarcity. I don't know why people keep insisting that it is. Better than half the stories/plots wouldn't be possible if it were.

The onscreen evidence overwhelmingly shows that they are dependent on multiple resources, replicators are not all-powerful, and that manufacturing and fabrication of goods is still necessary.

In The Neutral Zone, Picard outright says "We have eliminated hunger, want, the need for possessions." That pretty clearly suggests poverty doesn't exist in the Federation. There's basically only two ways this is possible. One is post-scarcity economics. The other is that the Federation is implemented a socialist economic system that works, where resources were redistributed away from the wealthy and they moved to a post-capitalist state. Picard's line from First Contact, I suppose, suggests this, when he discusses how the "acquisition of wealth is no longer the driving force in our lives. We work to better ourselves and the rest of humanity."

Certainly there is only one reference to a rich person existing in Trek (in TAS, so arguably non-canon), and only one in-universe mentioning of a corporation existing within the Federation. So maybe you're right, and they're all just commies.

 

[XCV330]

The Star Trek universe isn't post-scarcity. I don't know why people keep insisting that it is. Better than half the stories/plots wouldn't be possible if it were.

The onscreen evidence overwhelmingly shows that they are dependant on multiple resources, replicators are not all-powerful, and that manufacturing and fabrication of goods is still necessary.

Yep. And they just kinda sorta touched on it in the Tilly minisode. The way Tilly reacted when she realized Po had found a way to recrystallize dilithium showed how important dilithium was to keeping the Federation running (also demonstrated in "the Butcher's Knife.."

Certainly there is only one reference to a rich person existing in Trek (in TAS, so arguably non-canon), and only one in-universe mentioning of a corporation existing within the Federation. So maybe you're right, and they're all just commies.

Baron Grimes looked pretty rich. Both Mudd and Quark had aspirations of owning a moon. Wealth may not be the same as it used to be, but its still out there. Ferengi ethics depend upon that ideal. Federation's post scarcity seems to be more an ideal that works well enough in the core worlds when they are unthreatened, but unravels in the colonies and trouble zones. Picard is something of a born-again proselytizer of Fed values after his young encounter with some Nausicaans, who have been shown over hundreds of years to be pirates and theives (piracy implying they at least, also believe in acquiring wealth)

 

[CorporalClegg]

Yep. And they just kinda sorta touched on it in the Tilly minisode. The way Tilly reacted when she realized Po had found a way to recrystallize dilithium showed how important dilithium was to keeping the Federation running (also demonstrated in "the Butcher's Knife.."

Exactly.

I think it's a case where the mythology says one thing, but the writing says another - even if inadvertently so. A good example of this is Doctor's Measure of a Man episode where they show the other EMHs in the mines. The episode didn't have anything to do with economics, but the whole argument of sentient beings used as slave labor doesn't hold any water in a post-scarcity society.

 

[eschaton]

Baron Grimes looked pretty rich. Both Mudd and Quark had aspirations of owning a moon. Wealth may not be the same as it used to be, but its still out there. Ferengi ethics depend upon that ideal. Federation's post scarcity seems to be more an ideal that works well enough in the core worlds when they are unthreatened, but unravels in the colonies and trouble zones. Picard is something of a born-again proselytizer of Fed values after his young encounter with some Nausicaans, who have been shown over hundreds of years to be pirates and theives (piracy implying they at least, also believe in acquiring wealth)

Quark wasn't a Federation citizen, he was a Ferengi, which are infamous for their market economy (indeed, some of the interactions between Jake and Nog contrasted the two, with Jake having no money, and Nog lambasting him for it). We don't actually know if Baron Grimes is human, but given he sold to both the Federation and the Klingons, he's almost certainly operating outside of official Federation sanction. Maybe like some rich people today he canceled his Federation citizenship to claim residency somewhere more advantageous? Mudd seems to be in a similar circumstance - he operates on the fringes, and frequently breaks the law, thus it's very likely that any fortune he has is stored away outside of the Federation.

Note that on DS9 they were very explicit about this. The Orion Syndicate, for example, operated out of many independent worlds, including Farius Prime and New Sydney. These worlds were canonically not part of the Federation, even though we saw Federation "races" like Humans and Trill living there. They also explicitly had market economies, currencies, and businesses - unlike anything we are aware of in the "Federation proper."

 

[eschaton]

I think it's a case where the mythology says one thing, but the writing says another - even if inadvertently so. A good example of this is Doctor's Measure of a Man episode where they show the other EMHs in the mines. The episode didn't have anything to do with economics, but the whole argument of sentient beings used as slave labor doesn't hold any water in a post-scarcity society.

I mean, it's pretty clear if you read the behind-the-scenes stuff Gene was the one who was insistent on the whole no-money thing starting with TNG. The writers fucking hated it - along with the replicator - because when added to the maxim that the crew couldn't disagree it took away a large portion of conflicts which make plots work. You can't have a MacGuffin, for example, if you can just replicate up a new one.

 

[F. King Daniel]

We don't have a canon one, but Star Trek Online uses this:

Mind you that's used for all the factions, it's a universal credit, not just federation.

Franz Joseph Schnaubelt designed Federation Credit notes, I cannot recall if it was unused content for the Technical Manual or something his did for his daughter for fun.

 

[XCV330]

Quark wasn't a Federation citizen, he was a Ferengi, which are infamous for their market economy (indeed, some of the interactions between Jake and Nog contrasted the two, with Jake having no money, and Nog lambasting him for it). We don't actually know if Baron Grimes is human, but given he sold to both the Federation and the Klingons, he's almost certainly operating outside of official Federation sanction. Maybe like some rich people today he canceled his Federation citizenship to claim residency somewhere more advantageous? Mudd seems to be in a similar circumstance - he operates on the fringes, and frequently breaks the law, thus it's very likely that any fortune he has is stored away outside of the Federation.

Note that on DS9 they were very explicit about this. The Orion Syndicate, for example, operated out of many independent worlds, including Farius Prime and New Sydney. These worlds were canonically not part of the Federation, even though we saw Federation "races" like Humans and Trill living there. They also explicitly had market economies, currencies, and businesses - unlike anything we are aware of in the "Federation proper."

Baron (or Barron) Grimes may not have been human. There are completely human looking non humans out there, obviously. TOS showed them all the time. But it was clear the Federation knew a lot about him and were willing to send Mudd to him to keep him out of their hands. This implied that Baron Grimes had some standing with them. That and the fact Grimes is a last name of English origin, tends to imply he is at least partly human. Whether he is a Federation citizen is irrelevant. He is involved in its economy.

Likewise Betazoids have at least one bank. Why have a bank if there is no need to hold currency? Did they shut down that bank when officially joining the Federation?

In TOS, there is still a Merchant Marine, and it is still common for Vulcans to be involved in trading. It can be hand-waved "they're trading to non-federation worlds" but they ARE trading, and if they are, there has to be some profit motive.

Escape Artist is interesting in that it does deal with money more than has been seen in awhile. The Tellarite bounty hunter was specifically doing his task in expectation of a specific amount of money from Federation. At first this was listed as credits, but it was pretty clear when he arrived on the De Milo that he was expecting it in some form of latinum. So the Federation has credits, and it can be pegged to specific amounts of Latinum. The Credit itself could be based on some other standard besides FIAT currency but speculating on that would be another thread. They may have differentiated it enough to where good-thinking Federation citizens like Kirk and Picard may deny it is money, but for all practical purposes, it's money.

 

[eschaton]

Baron (or Barron) Grimes may not have been human. There are completely human looking non humans out there, obviously. TOS showed them all the time. But it was clear the Federation knew a lot about him and were willing to send Mudd to him to keep him out of their hands. This implied that Baron Grimes had some standing with them. That and the fact Grimes is a last name of English origin, tends to imply he is at least partly human. Whether he is a Federation citizen is irrelevant. He is involved in its economy.

Likewise Betazoids have at least one bank. Why have a bank if there is no need to hold currency? Did they shut down that bank when officially joining the Federation?

In TOS, there is still a Merchant Marine, and it is still common for Vulcans to be involved in trading. It can be hand-waved "they're trading to non-federation worlds" but they ARE trading, and if they are, there has to be some profit motive.

Escape Artist is interesting in that it does deal with money more than has been seen in awhile. The Tellarite bounty hunter was specifically doing his task in expectation of a specific amount of money from Federation. At first this was listed as credits, but it was pretty clear when he arrived on the De Milo that he was expecting it in some form of latinum. So the Federation has credits, and it can be pegged to specific amounts of Latinum. The Credit itself could be based on some other standard besides FIAT currency but speculating on that would be another thread. They may have differentiated it enough to where good-thinking Federation citizens like Kirk and Picard may deny it is money, but for all practical purposes, it's money.

My own headcanon is that money still exists in the Federation during the TOS era. There are at least four references to money in TOS. The TOS movies conflicted a bit, with TVH suggesting money doesn't exist, then McCoy mentioning buying a boat in TUC. Then in Generations, Kirk refers to having sold his house years ago.

I think the case is much more open and shut by the 24th century though. There are I believe two references in early TNG to money. In Measure of Man, Picard offers to "buy dinner" for Phillipa Louvois. And in The Survivors, Rishon Uxbridge mentions her husband was a "starving student" when they met. But this has to be balanced against explicit statements by Picard, Tom Paris, Jake Sisko, and others that money doesn't exist.

 

[Tuskin38]

Likewise Betazoids have at least one bank. Why have a bank if there is no need to hold currency? Did they shut down that bank when officially joining the Federation?

Bolians have also been said to still have a bank.

 

[XCV330]

But this has to be balanced against explicit statements by Picard, Tom Paris, Jake Sisko, and others that money doesn't exist.

Must be hard for the Sisko family to run that restaurant in the Quarter, when anyone can just sit down and say "make me some gumbo. I'm not paying. I don't have to. Oh nevermind, ill just scan it and replicate it. That will save some work for your employees, who have been shown several times but clearly must not exist or are doing this for waiter-internships so they can be waiters on Ten Forward one day"

The no money thing has just been a really really really dumb monkey wrench in canon, and seems to be avoided any time anyone writing a show needs it to not exist, which is very often.

 

[CorporalClegg]

Jake Sisko was called out for the BS and couldn't give any kind of functional explanation when challenged.

This is really the crux of the problem. Gene insisted that it "just was" but never bothered to define the logistical/administrative application side of how a civilization teetering on the trillions could possibly function in an orderly fashion without any kind of regulated commerce.

 

[F. King Daniel]

Jake Sisko was called out for the BS and couldn't give any kind of functional explanation when challenged.

This is really the crux of the problem. Gene insisted that it "just was" but never bothered to define the logistical/administrative application side of how a civilization teetering on the trillions could possibly function in an orderly fashion without any kind of regulated commerce.

The writers have never bothered to figure out how it may work, so we have situations where they acknowledge how ridiculous it is but go no further. William Shatner's novels (which ignore Kirk's line in STIV and Voyager's line about money being phased out in the 22nd century) and have Kirk ask what's stopping him from just claiming a better apartment or a starship, but the answer is interrupted.

 

[Tuskin38]

Must be hard for the Sisko family to run that restaurant in the Quarter, when anyone can just sit down and say "make me some gumbo. I'm not paying. I don't have to. Oh nevermind, ill just scan it and replicate it. That will save some work for your employees, who have been shown several times but clearly must not exist or are doing this for waiter-internships so they can be waiters on Ten Forward one day"

The no money thing has just been a really really really dumb monkey wrench in canon, and seems to be avoided any time anyone writing a show needs it to not exist, which is very often.

Some episodes have said the real food tastes better than replicated.

 

[eschaton]

Must be hard for the Sisko family to run that restaurant in the Quarter, when anyone can just sit down and say "make me some gumbo. I'm not paying. I don't have to. Oh nevermind, ill just scan it and replicate it. That will save some work for your employees, who have been shown several times but clearly must not exist or are doing this for waiter-internships so they can be waiters on Ten Forward one day"

The no money thing has just been a really really really dumb monkey wrench in canon, and seems to be avoided any time anyone writing a show needs it to not exist, which is very often.

I mean, it's 100% believable to me that even in a post-scarcity utopia, some people would want to open up restaurants. Some people just love cooking for other people and chit-chat with strangers passing through. If they didn't need a "day job" to survive, and had to while away the hours, they just might open up a small storefront and make it the passion of their life. Sort of in an analogous way to some rich people (or comfortably well-off retirees) forming a small business not because they need the money, but because they need to do something.

It is, however, much harder to figure out how the hell Joseph Sisko got anyone else (other than family) to work for him. Or how he managed to procure non-replicated food.

Honestly, if the Federation - either at its conception or later on - was shown as a much-more automated civilization, all of this would be much more understandable. In a sort of post-human world where robots can do most physical labor, and AI can do most intellectual labor, both goods and services would be exceedingly cheap, letting people basically work on their "hobbies" as their occupations.

 

[Awesome Possum]

The whole no money thing seems like it was part of Gene going off the deep end towards the end with his perfect future utopia.

I figure money in some form has to exist, just to deal with other races or cultures. Maybe the pursuit of money is gone and no one is really greedy. Money is basically like video game currency to them. They seem something they like, they give the credits for it. They don’t pay bills for electricity or anything like that. But people still buy art, go to restaurants and shop in markets. No one starves because of replicators, but sometimes you do want a well made dish. People in Star Trek do seem to appreciate someone putting effort into a skill or talent.

 

[Mr. Laser Beam]

Kirk might have been referring to the physical form of currency in his statement from ST IV.

That's what I always assumed as well. The Federation Credit is a real thing, it exists, we all know the UFP uses it, it can't be ignored. Whether it counts as money, as such, is a whole 'nother bag of snakes.

I don't remember "I, Mudd" that precisely, but didn't Mudd in that episode just find these (alien) robots, and then immediately got trapped by them? Having him encounter incredible human robots twice (only because that's what he's known for) seems kind of forced

Perhaps "I, Mudd" is where Harry learned how to build lifelike androids like the ones we saw here?